Cloning HopHands by Tired Hands Brewing Company

[Little_Lebowski]

Anyone else think the kettle hops in this one are a bit skimped on? Maybe it's just me liking big hoppy flavor and aroma but I brewed this word for word a few months ago and it was just average at best for hoppiness, especially for a TH brew. Gonna brew it again with 75/25 pale malt/oat malt and do 1:1:1 Amarillo/simcoe/centennial @5 , 1:1:1 at flameout for 20min and 1:1:1 at 170F whirlpool for 20 min. Dry hop schedule will be the same which with the bittering addition will put me in just shy of a pound of hops for the batch. Like I said maybe it's just a personal preference but, for me, to hit that stellar commercial brew hoppiness the likes of these NEastern IPA's of late, I really have to sneak in at least 10-16 oz per 5 gallon batch.

 

[Oldskewl]

What recipe did you use for your batch? The recipe on the first page of this thread or the revised recipe in Coff's blog? I used the revised recipe and my hop bitterness is more bitter than Hop Hands, drinking them back to back. Not sure if it has to do with water profile, hop freshness or process, but I plan to reduce the CTZ bittering addition on my next batch or lower the temp on the whirlpool additions.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

If I'm correct the edits are a FWH instead of a 60 and an extra .25 oz each on the whirlpool? I did the blog recipe. Just wasn't as light and crisp in the malt as HH and, for me, the color was a bit dark too. Also, like I posted above, I think it was too modest on the kettle hops.

I'll be sure to post brew day and later tasting notes on the uber hopped version. I may try and back off a bit on the 2-row and possibly use corn sugar to keep the color even lighter. It's been so yellow lately from the brewery. Who knows though, maybe keep it to one experiment at a time

 

[Little_Lebowski]

What recipe did you use for your batch? The recipe on the first page of this thread or the revised recipe in Coff's blog? I used the revised recipe and my hop bitterness is more bitter than Hop Hands, drinking them back to back. Not sure if it has to do with water profile, hop freshness or process, but I plan to reduce the CTZ bittering addition on my next batch or lower the temp on the whirlpool additions.

What temp do you whirlpool now?

 

[crusader1612]

If I'm correct the edits are a FWH instead of a 60 and an extra .25 oz each on the whirlpool? I did the blog recipe. Just wasn't as light and crisp in the malt as HH and, for me, the color was a bit dark too. Also, like I posted above, I think it was too modest on the kettle hops.

I'll be sure to post brew day and later tasting notes on the uber hopped version. I may try and back off a bit on the 2-row and possibly use corn sugar to keep the color even lighter. It's been so yellow lately from the brewery. Who knows though, maybe keep it to one experiment at a time

I think as coff mentioned - they seem to be using Malted Oats mostly, which seems to line up better with the light and crisp.
I think there's definitely some merit in malted oats in a beer like this.

Coff said to me the other day via his blog, that he has used Pilsner malt as well, which might help with the crispness as well?

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Yeah forgot to mention that too. I was using malted myself, not the flaked.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

I think as coff mentioned - they seem to be using Malted Oats mostly, which seems to line up better with the light and crisp.
I think there's definitely some merit in malted oats in a beer like this.

Coff said to me the other day via his blog, that he has used Pilsner malt as well, which might help with the crispness as well?

Crispness AND the nice light yellow color

 

[Oldskewl]

What temp do you whirlpool now?

I whirlpooled at 185F. I've read that lowering the whirlpool temp to 170 would reduce the buttering or try cutting the CTZ down to .25 or .33 oz at FWH. You seem to have the opposite problem though.minthought you kit have used the original recipe with the lower hop additions. I used 9# of Canada Malt Pale along with 2# of flaked oats and my color was darker than the real deal Hop Hands. I'm anxious to try the Oat Malt next time around. Have you played with your water profile? Having more sulfate thank ca/cl can sharpen the hop bitterness. I used 1 tsp each gypsum and ca/cl. I also used 2.7 oz of acid malt to bring the PH down. I plan to use closer to 5oz next time.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

I whirlpooled at 185F. I've read that lowering the whirlpool temp to 170 would reduce the buttering or try cutting the CTZ down to .25 or .33 oz at FWH. You seem to have the opposite problem though.minthought you kit have used the original recipe with the lower hop additions. I used 9# of Canada Malt Pale along with 2# of flaked oats and my color was darker than the real deal Hop Hands. I'm anxious to try the Oat Malt next time around. Have you played with your water profile? Having more sulfate thank ca/cl can sharpen the hop bitterness. I used 1 tsp each gypsum and ca/cl. I also used 2.7 oz of acid malt to bring the PH down. I plan to use closer to 5oz next time.

Yeah I would definitely get at least under 180... I shoot to 170 personally but get under or to 180. Above and you're still getting some isomerization going on. And you'll certainly see difference with that oat malt. Lightest color I was able to obtain yet when I used it for the first time.

 

[exileonmainst]

Anyone else think the kettle hops in this one are a bit skimped on? Maybe it's just me liking big hoppy flavor and aroma but I brewed this word for word a few months ago and it was just average at best for hoppiness, especially for a TH brew. Gonna brew it again with 75/25 pale malt/oat malt and do 1:1:1 Amarillo/simcoe/centennial @5 , 1:1:1 at flameout for 20min and 1:1:1 at 170F whirlpool for 20 min. Dry hop schedule will be the same which with the bittering addition will put me in just shy of a pound of hops for the batch. Like I said maybe it's just a personal preference but, for me, to hit that stellar commercial brew hoppiness the likes of these NEastern IPA's of late, I really have to sneak in at least 10-16 oz per 5 gallon batch.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The recipe here makes a great beer but it's definitely not a clone. It's reminiscent of HopHands, but if you have them side by side, it's very obvious which is which. Of course, my process could explain a lot, maybe I suck at brewing, but two main things for me explain why it's not really a clone:

1) The color, as you mentioned. The recipe produces a darker, more orange beer - at least my versions of it have been that way. Real HopHands is is cloudy, straw yellow. I don't think they could be using any type of roasted or crystal malts, aside from however the Oat Malt is treated. I think regular 2-row would be more appropriate than Pale Ale Malt, which is a tad bit darker. Maybe even pilsner malt. Whatever they are using is minimally kilned.

2) The ABV. HopHands is 5.5% and the recipe is 4.5%. The bigger malt backbone could help the hops taste more balanced... or something. I don't know, but I do know if it's supposed to be a clone, then the two objective things (color and ABV) should match, or we know for sure it's not right.

 

[mintyice]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The recipe here makes a great beer but it's definitely not a clone. It's reminiscent of HopHands, but if you have them side by side, it's very obvious which is which. Of course, my process could explain a lot, maybe I suck at brewing, but two main things for me explain why it's not really a clone:

1) The color, as you mentioned. The recipe produces a darker, more orange beer - at least my versions of it have been that way. Real HopHands is is cloudy, straw yellow. I don't think they could be using any type of roasted or crystal malts, aside from however the Oat Malt is treated. I think regular 2-row would be more appropriate than Pale Ale Malt, which is a tad bit darker. Maybe even pilsner malt. Whatever they are using is minimally kilned.

2) The ABV. HopHands is 5.5% and the recipe is 4.5%. The bigger malt backbone could help the hops taste more balanced... or something. I don't know, but I do know if it's supposed to be a clone, then the two objective things (color and ABV) should match, or we know for sure it's not right.

They changed it from 4.5% to 5.5% over a year ago at this point. Also the beer itself seems different since the Ferm opened. It hasn't captivated me the same way since the first couple times I had it at the brew cafe. Whether that has to do with a recipe change, freshness, or my palate changing, etc, who knows. If you want a lighter color, try a 50/50 blend of pils and pale.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

They changed it from 4.5% to 5.5% over a year ago at this point. Also the beer itself seems different since the Ferm opened. It hasn't captivated me the same way since the first couple times I had it at the brew cafe. Whether that has to do with a recipe change, freshness, or my palate changing, etc, who knows. If you want a lighter color, try a 50/50 blend of pils and pale.

+1 to that. It's definitely not what it once was. It used to be a full blown IPA but I think they wanted to get it down to that pale ale definition

 

[Coff]

Yea, this recipe was modeled after the beer way back when it was only the Brew Cafe and for me the beer was much better back then. They've since upped the ABV, and seemingly have much less hop character in the beer then in the past. I also think they used flaked oats for much longer than the first month they were open, but thats just my remembering side by side tastings of of the beer and mine like 2.5 years ago.

As far as the recipe being light on the hops, I think people are forgetting this is a pale ale and not an IPA. Not to mention, 10+ ounces of hops in a 5 gallon batch isnt exactly light imo, but maybe times are changing idk.

Either way, its tough when you write a blog post on a beer to clone it, share it with the brewer and he agrees its pretty spot on, then years later the recipe is changed. Do I go back and keep chasing this beer? I suppose I could, but frankly, the beer was far better back when I set out to clone it.

As far as color differences on peoples batches, a lot of factors at play there, but as you can see in the photo below the color differences between HH and HW are remarkably similar.

http://www.alesoftheriverwards.com/2014/03/tasting-notes-hopwards-vs-hophands.html

 

[Coff]

By all means, change it up as much as you like, if nothing else its a great base to build from and explore some different techniques and hops.

 

[exileonmainst]

Interesting. I did not realize they changed the recipe. I was only at the Cafe once before the Fermentaria opened, so I'm not sure if I even had the original. Thanks for the insights.

 

[TNGabe]

Does Tired Hands really use CMC pale? I like their beers a lot and hate that malt. In my experience, CMC pale has a weird acrid flavor I've never gotten from any other pale malt.

 

[Coff]

Does Tired Hands really use CMC pale? I like their beers a lot and hate that malt. In my experience, CMC pale has a weird acrid flavor I've never gotten from any other pale malt.

They used to, but they use Briess now. My Using CMC Pale is not important to the recipe, I don't even use it anymore but I liked it and I was able to get it for $0.25/LB at one time. Use whatever Pale Malt you like, I beleive they use Briess 2-Row now.

 

[Oldskewl]

Brewed my second attempt at a version of this recipe today. In the scorching 95 degree heat here in PA. Wheeeew! First time brewing in the heat. Lol! I Upped the grain a bit to 9.5# Breiss 2-row, 2#TF oat malt and a 0.25# flaked oats. I backed up the Columbus to 0.333 oz and lowered the whirlpool temp to 170 deg as my first batch, by the book, was a bit bitter. Finally I subbed Mosaic for the Simcoe as I am a fan of mosaic and Coff said it was his favorite combo. Also used a harvest of 1318 off the first batch. Anxious to see how it turns out.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Brewed my second attempt at a version of this recipe today. In the scorching 95 degree heat here in PA. Wheeeew! First time brewing in the heat. Lol! I Upped the grain a bit to 9.5# Breiss 2-row, 2#TF oat malt and a 0.25# flaked oats. I backed up the Columbus to 0.333 oz and lowered the whirlpool temp to 170 deg as my first batch, by the book, was a bit bitter. Finally I subbed Mosaic for the Simcoe as I am a fan of mosaic and Coff said it was his favorite combo. Also used a harvest of 1318 off the first batch. Anxious to see how it turns out.

Where at in PA, man? That's weird I did my second attempt yesterday in PA and in the killer heat too. While it was hot it wasn't humid and there was a slight breeze running under my canopy. I'm pretty happy with my brew day.

 

[Oldskewl]

I'm in Greencastle, about an hour south of Harrisburg. My day went pretty smooth as well. The heat wasn't that bad. Squeezing the bag over the boil kettle was about the only time I minded it. I was nervous about my first yeast washing of the 1318, but it is going crazy today.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

I'm in York

 

[Oldskewl]

Hi neighbor!

 

[crusader1612]

I should be ok to harvest yeast for another batch, if I use a hop bag for dryhops right?

the plan is to brew Lagunitas Little Sumpin Sumpin with this yeast.

 

[tagz]

The hop debris and trub won't impact the viability of the yeast. The only thing you have to worry about is flavor impact, but you're pitching into a hoppy beer, so go for it.

 

[atom]

I'm in York

hey...i'm in york too. too hot for me to brew last weekend. i'm hoping this weekend will be better.

 

[crusader1612]

The hop debris and trub won't impact the viability of the yeast. The only thing you have to worry about is flavor impact, but you're pitching into a hoppy beer, so go for it.

Cheers, I decided to stick with my tried and true dryhop schedule (no bags required). i saved a jar of starter for my next one. nice package of yeast.
750ml of saved starter
for a 1070 wort, and a stir plate, what sort of starter should i use? i was thinking about 2 litres (i dont have ability to cell count)

 

[crusader1612]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1470378926.923844.jpg

So. I fined this with gelatin.
Normally my beers which are fined are crystal clear.

Slim yet to figure out the haze side.
But it's tasty. And juicy. Wow. So juicy. It's like well juice.

I'm a bit perplexed.

 

[grassfeeder]

any one add about .5# of corn sugar just to boost the ABV a touch?

 

[Coff]

any one add about .5# of corn sugar just to boost the ABV a touch?

Ive done it before, works fine, but for me I like to keep most of my hoppy beers in the 5-6%. You may get a little drier beer but thats fine.

 

[grassfeeder]

Ive done it before, works fine, but for me I like to keep most of my hoppy beers in the 5-6%. You may get a little drier beer but thats fine.

Thats exactly why I wanted to add the corn sugar as it gets me to 5.3%

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: American Pale Ale
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.042
Efficiency: 60% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.053
Final Gravity: 1.012
ABV (standard): 5.36%
IBU (tinseth): 40.12
SRM (morey): 5.91

FERMENTABLES:
10.5 lb - American - Pale Ale (82.3%)
1.76 lb - Flaked Oats (13.8%)
0.5 lb - Corn Sugar - Dextrose (3.9%)

HOPS:
0.65 oz - Columbus, Type: Pellet, AA: 15, Use: First Wort, IBU: 22.01
0.75 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.2, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 4.57
0.75 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 6.69
0.75 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.3, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 6.86
0.75 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.2, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 185 °F
0.75 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 185 °F
0.75 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.3, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 185 °F
2 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.2, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
2 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
2 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.3, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 150 F, Time: 60 min
2) Sparge, Temp: 170 F, Time: 20 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.25 qt/lb

YEAST:
White Labs - Dry English Ale Yeast WLP007
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Med-High
Optimum Temp: 65 - 70 F
Fermentation Temp: 66 F