Clean VS Sanitized

[Tiber_Brew]

why isn't the milk standard of 161F for 15 seconds acceptable?

Food pasteurization standards are targeted for different organisms that pose risks to our health, not necessarily for keeping beer spoiling bacteria out. Different organisms require different methods.

The milk standard was developed to eliminate illnesses caused by milk, which was a common occurrence before the 161F practice was widely adopted.

Again, no offense, but here it appears that you are equating pasteurization for food to sanitation for brewing. We don't sanitize brewing equipment for our health. Therefore, we are often targeting different organisms than food pasteurization methods do. And as I've said before, no known pathogens can survive in beer anyway, so all we as brewers are concerned with is killing the beer spoiling organisms. I'll expand on this in a bit.

Are there different microbes that occur in brewing that can survive 161F for 15 seconds?

Yes!

What are they

To name a few: Acetobacter, Pediococcus, Lactobacillus...

and exactly how and how long at what temperature do you have to go to get rid of them?

Approximately 212F for 10 minutes, ideally. Anyone who has made a yeast starter is familiar with this.

Is the "rule of thumb" of 190F found in any documentation or standards of brewing sanitation?

In brewing documentation? Probably not. It isn't a brewing standard. 190F as a minimum is a general rule of thumb to kill microorganisms if you can't bring water to a boil. Could you get away with a lower temperature for longer time? Possibly. The denature rate for beer spoiling organisms is a curve, and it's also statistically derived. Would you gamble with that? I wouldn't.

I do know that people have done no-boil "raw ale" where the wort only gets as hot as the batch sparge. I haven't done a no boil beer but would think the raw ale wort temperature would be in the 160-170 range? Is that hot enough for brewing sanitation?

No. Does that mean that the beer will be guaranteed to be infected? Not necessarily, but my money is on significant aceto and lacto growth. One of the most significant reasons for bringing wort to a boil is to kill spoiling organisms found in malt and water supplies.

Here's a link I found that says for dish washing, 171F for 30 seconds is required, I would suppose they have some rationale for that standard.

http://www.co.burlington.nj.us/DocumentCenter/Home/View/614

Here's an analogous example that may help you see the point I'm making. Millions of homes in this country have tap water that is safe to drink. That is, it has either been treated or tested to confirm it does not contain pathogens detrimental to our health. It is not, however, considered sanitary by any halfway competent brewer. That is why we use "no rinse" sanitizers, and why we boil water first then let it cool to 90F to rehydrate dry yeast.

My point being: "safe to consume" does not necessarily mean "sanitized for brewing."

 

[Gavin C]

Food pasteurization........"sanitized for brewing."

Great Job Tiber. Thanks very much for adding this well presented, clear and accurate information.

 

[Jim311]

^ Good post. Just because it's safe to eat doesn't mean it doesn't still contain bacteria. Our stomachs and digestive tracts can tolerate all sorts of microorganism, in fact, our guts are *filled* with microorganisms. But there are certain ones that don't play nice with our guts, or our beers. For instance, Lacto may sour a beer and make it taste like total crap, but it's also the active culture in many probiotics in human health supplements.

 

[GuldTuborg]

For instance, Lacto may sour a beer and make it taste like total crap, but it's also the active culture in many probiotics in human health supplements.

It makes some really tasty beers, too.

 

[handwrought]

Thank you all for the in depth discussion on Clean Vs Sanitized. Being new to all this, I had no idea it was such a hot topic. I have gained a lot of great info here from you guys. I've always ben the guy to ask "why" when people say "thats the way its always ben done". Given that I have never brewed a beer but have consumed many, I will likely do my first several batches with sanitizer until I feel comfortable with my methods and setup. When I can achieve repeatable and predictable results, I will begin to experiment with Clean Vs Sanitized. There are many reasons I feel I need to experiment with this. For now I await the arrival of my kit so I can begin brewing with sanitized equipment. My apologies for getting bent out of shape for the flippant replies early on. Several of you have given very clear and reasonable descriptions/explanations as to the why sanitized. Time for a beer- Cheers!

 

[bigmunchez]

I realise that after some tense times, this thread has finally reached a kind of uneasy truce, so I'm somewhat reluctant to post, but I was trying something new with my brett/sour fermenter and thought of the OP. Might be of use in your future endeavours...

 

[handwrought]

I'm not sure what I'm looking at...

 

[1977Brewer]

I'm not sure what I'm looking at...

I think he's steam sanitizing it.

Or trying the hard way to melt it.

 

[Jim311]

Steam can actually be HOTTER than boiling water so I don't doubt it will sanitize. But it could also release chemicals from the plastic that boiling water never would, because once again, steam can be hotter than boiling water. I doubt that'll happen, but theoretically it could be subjecting the plastic to temperatures much higher than it was rated for, having the exact opposite effect he is looking for, which is to sanitize without exposing himself to "toxic" sanitizers.

 

[m00ps]

I think he's steam sanitizing it.

Or trying the hard way to melt it.

Plus, steam rises up. Not sideways

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Steam can actually be HOTTER than boiling water so I don't doubt it will sanitize. But it could also release chemicals from the plastic that boiling water never would, because once again, steam can be hotter than boiling water. I doubt that'll happen, but theoretically it could be subjecting the plastic to temperatures much higher than it was rated for, having the exact opposite effect he is looking for, which is to sanitize without exposing himself to "toxic" sanitizers.

Just to be clear, steam isn't hotter than boiling water; it has more energy (latent heat). If that fermentor is rated past 212F, it should be fine with steam at atmospheric pressure.

 

[mcspanner]

Just to be clear, steam isn't hotter than boiling water; it has more energy (latent heat). If that fermentor is rated past 212F, it should be fine with steam at atmospheric pressure.

This. You'd have a rocket fermenter from the pressure long before the steam would get much hotter than boiling.

 

[k-moe]

any tips for avoiding the use of chemicals?

If you stop using chemicals you'll, quite literally, die.
Please don't stop using chemicals.
Please do continue to learn about chemistry, and how toxicity is related to dosage and use.

 

[AkBrew907]

If you stop using chemicals you'll, quite literally, die.
Please don't stop using chemicals.
Please do continue to learn about chemistry, and how toxicity is related to dosage and use.

But the chemikillz and poison and natural news and food babe and ignorance.......


Ugh...

 

[Izzie1701]

There is a commercial winery near me and they don't use any chemicals or sulphites. Just pure wine as they call it. They do sterilize everything with steam though. I'm sure if you have a big enough kettle or boil pot you could just soak everything on boiling water. Not sure how the hydrometer would hold up though.

 

[elsphinc]

Antibacterial hand sanitizers lead to super bugs not sanitized fermentations

 

[madscientist451]

Deleted Post

 

[madscientist451]

If you stop using chemicals you'll, quite literally, die.
Please don't stop using chemicals.
Please do continue to learn about chemistry, and how toxicity is related to dosage and use.

Part of the above post was the question: "Any tips on avoiding chemicals".
That question was from the OP?
BTW, I've been making and drinking cider for years (lots of it) without chemicals added and I'm not dead yet. I am a big fan of star-san and use it often, so I guess I'm chemical dependent.

 

[GrogNerd]

clean everything pre-boil, sanitize everything post-boil.

I think it's one of the few things "you should..." do in this hobby/obsession. It's called "best practices" and better brewers than me told me this and I believe them

but how you clean, how you sanitize is completely up to you. I use star-san, you don't have to

good luck with this and all future brews.

anyone have a link to the video of the guy with the surgical mask freaking out on a speck of dust in his sterile brew room? OP really should watch that one and see what happens when you take too far the practical suggestions others have made in this thread

 

[GuldTuborg]

Antibacterial hand sanitizers lead to super bugs not sanitized fermentations

There's problem #1. Don't use hand sanitizers in your brew.

Or did you mean the ones with ethanol as the active ingredient? You should definitely stop using anything with ethanol.

 

[slym2none]

 

[k-moe]

so I guess I'm chemical dependent.

You could say that we are all chemically dependent (in the most literal of senses).

Speaking of cider;
Who here has ever looked at what an apple is made of (including organically grown apples)?