citra hops cutting?

[theredben]

Yeah but wouldn't they be 99% Citra in all likelyhood?

If a single plant grows both male and female parts and pollenates itself (pretty common, actually), how would the seed have anything genetically different than the parent? (Serious question)

To my simple mind this seems no different than cutting a rhizome.

Maybe he'll end up with a better Citra - call it "Supra"!

The difference is that with a rhizome section, or a bine cutting, you are dealing with mitosis (regular cell division) which is where the plant just endlessly replicates the cells as it grows so they all have the same information.

With seed production however, you end up with something called meiosis (sexually reproductive cell division) where the chromosomes, the genetic information that determines how the hops taste and grow, are randomly assorted between. Also, remember that certain combinations of chromosomes are linked to other parts, complicating matter further. Since citra hops are diploid (2 copies of each chromosome), there can be a HUGE variation in the resulting offspring. Is it possible that one of the seeds will be close to Citra? Possibly, but the chances are slim to none.

Example:

Say for a certain gene (small part of a chromosome) there are only 2 different versions (in reality there are usually many more than 2), lets call them A and B. And lets use another gene with only 2 variations, lets call them E and F. One diplooid plant could have the chromosomes ABEF and if it was crossed with itself the offspring would be :

AAEF: 12.5%
ABEF: 25%
BBEF: 12.5%
AAEE: 6.25%
ABEE: 12.5%
BBEE: 6.25%
AAFF: 6.25%
ABFF: 12.5%
BBFF: 6.25%

The other problem with seed production is that you have many mutations and other changes that really make it challenging to reproduce a variety by seed. If you were able to get the original parents of the cross (which I am sure HBC is guarding closely), you might have better luck, but it would still be a multi-year process.

 

[paulster2626]

The difference is that with a rhizome section, or a bine cutting, you are dealing with mitosis (regular cell division) which is where the plant just endlessly replicates the cells as it grows so they all have the same information.

With seed production however, you end up with something called meiosis (sexually reproductive cell division) where the chromosomes, the genetic information that determines how the hops taste and grow, are randomly assorted between. Also, remember that certain combinations of chromosomes are linked to other parts, complicating matter further. Since citra hops are diploid (2 copies of each chromosome), there can be a HUGE variation in the resulting offspring. Is it possible that one of the seeds will be close to Citra? Possibly, but the chances are slim to none.

Example:

Say for a certain gene (small part of a chromosome) there are only 2 different versions (in reality there are usually many more than 2), lets call them A and B. And lets use another gene with only 2 variations, lets call them E and F. One diplooid plant could have the chromosomes ABEF and if it was crossed with itself the offspring would be :

AAEF: 12.5%
ABEF: 25%
BBEF: 12.5%
AAEE: 6.25%
ABEE: 12.5%
BBEE: 6.25%
AAFF: 6.25%
ABFF: 12.5%
BBFF: 6.25%

The other problem with seed production is that you have many mutations and other changes that really make it challenging to reproduce a variety by seed. If you were able to get the original parents of the cross (which I am sure HBC is guarding closely), you might have better luck, but it would still be a multi-year process.

Wow very interesting. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Satisfaction]

The difference is that with a rhizome section, or a bine cutting, you are dealing with mitosis (regular cell division) which is where the plant just endlessly replicates the cells as it grows so they all have the same information.

With seed production however, you end up with something called meiosis (sexually reproductive cell division) where the chromosomes, the genetic information that determines how the hops taste and grow, are randomly assorted between. Also, remember that certain combinations of chromosomes are linked to other parts, complicating matter further. Since citra hops are diploid (2 copies of each chromosome), there can be a HUGE variation in the resulting offspring. Is it possible that one of the seeds will be close to Citra? Possibly, but the chances are slim to none.

Example:

Say for a certain gene (small part of a chromosome) there are only 2 different versions (in reality there are usually many more than 2), lets call them A and B. And lets use another gene with only 2 variations, lets call them E and F. One diplooid plant could have the chromosomes ABEF and if it was crossed with itself the offspring would be :

AAEF: 12.5%
ABEF: 25%
BBEF: 12.5%
AAEE: 6.25%
ABEE: 12.5%
BBEE: 6.25%
AAFF: 6.25%
ABFF: 12.5%
BBFF: 6.25%

The other problem with seed production is that you have many mutations and other changes that really make it challenging to reproduce a variety by seed. If you were able to get the original parents of the cross (which I am sure HBC is guarding closely), you might have better luck, but it would still be a multi-year process.

I planted tomato seeds this year and they taste amazing and like tomatoes.

Very much appreciate the science behind this, my background is in chemistry. In my world we have something called "significant digits". Is this a case were theory and reality may not cross?

Meaning... The impact on the environmental growing conditions may even outweigh the differences of seed propagation?


I have several colleagues that will argue the difference in the purity of the science, but in the real world it doesn't matter.

 

[brewguyver]

I planted tomato seeds this year and they taste amazing and like tomatoes.

Very much appreciate the science behind this, my background is in chemistry. In my world we have something called "significant digits". Is this a case were theory and reality may not cross?

Meaning... The impact on the environmental growing conditions may even outweigh the differences of seed propagation?

I have several colleagues that will argue the difference in the purity of the science, but in the real world it doesn't matter.

I had tomato plants come up last year on their own from a crop two years ago. Taste was worlds apart, even though they looked the same. Something tells me they crossed with a other plant. Long story short - the tomato you get from seeds will always get you a tomato, but not necessarily the right tomato.

If it DOES work, you should probably come back and report an epic fail. Would love me a citra plant, but not if those oregon farmers know about it.

 

[Satisfaction]

If it DOES work, you should probably come back and report an epic success.

Fixed the quote..

The great thing about this hobby, it's made for people who like to tinker. Never know how things are going to turn out. it may be better than that sliced bread.

Only time and effort will tell. If the seeds do not grow so be it.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]I am sure a chemist could recreate the flavor but at this point no one has the brand name recognition to sell like coke.

Ever hear of a little company called "PepsiCo"?

I'm sure they could have cloned Coke, but instead they went one better...

Cheers!

 

[pm5k00]

Even with planting rhizomes your soil composition can change the flavor of your hops, so if you where to get a cutting to root it still would be slightly different from its parent plant. Just name it something different and sell away.

 

[bottlebomber]

Ever hear of a little company called "PepsiCo"?

I'm sure they could have cloned Coke, but instead they went one better...

Cheers!

Right, they took Coke and added more corn syrup. I wonder if I add twice as much if I can outsell both of them... Is the world ready for a 400 calorie can of soda? I think so.

 

[day_trippr]

Right, they took Coke and added more corn syrup.

I thought it was lime.

I wonder if I add twice as much if I can outsell both of them... Is the world ready for a 400 calorie can of soda? I think so.

Hahahaha! Good luck with that!

Cheers!

 

[DrHop]

Look at the bright side, maybe you can claim that your hops aren't Citra when you get sued for growing/harvesting these.

 

[two_one_seven]

Hops bines are male and female as they are dioecious. So it would be diffent than cutting a rhizome.

 

[HydroGeologist]

But the crowns at any hop farm are all female. No males are allowed remotely close to the production field. So any bine included in a wet hop order has to be a female bine. Unless some guy is intentionally adding male bines just to be mean.

 

[two_one_seven]

True but if I understand correctly a female plant can produce a male plant......which is why the seeds are a crap shoot at best.

 

[nagmay]

True but if I understand correctly a female plant can produce a male plant......which is why the seeds are a crap shoot at best.

All hop plant sold commercially for brewing are female. They are essentially cloned by clipping the rhizome to produce a genetically identical (all female) plant.

When under stress, these female plants can sometimes put off male flowers. However, the pollen from these hermaphroditic plants is *almost* never viable. I have a cascade that throws a few male flowers every year. It is still a female plant. All the clones from this plant are also female.

Now to the fun part ... since hops are propagated by cloning, people haven't bothered to stabilize the strains like you might see with tomatoes. This means that they won't grow true from seed.

So, for instance: if my cascade somehow managed to pollinate itself, the resulting offspring would not be cascade. In fact, each seed produced would likely be a different (and brand new) variety of hops.

* never say never in biology. Sometimes, life finds a way!

 

[LeSinge]

All hop plant sold commercially for brewing are female. They are essentially cloned by clipping the rhizome to produce a genetically identical (all female) plant.

When under stress, these female plants can sometimes put off male flowers. However, the pollen from these hermaphroditic plants is *almost* never viable. I have a cascade that throws a few male flowers every year. It is still a female plant. All the clones from this plant are also female.

Now to the fun part ... since hops are propagated by cloning, people haven't bothered to stabilize the strains like you might see with tomatoes. This means that they won't grow true from seed.

So, for instance: if my cascade somehow managed to pollinate itself, the resulting offspring would not be cascade. In fact, each seed produced would likely be a different (and brand new) variety of hops.

* never say never in biology. Sometimes, life finds a way!

kinda like how 'Johnny Appleseed' spread apple trees throughout the countryside, and the harvest was mostly cider?
LOVE IT!

 

[Satisfaction]

And this is why I like this forum, learned more about Botany today... Always figured plant seeds were just that, seeds to grow new plants.

Thanks for everyones contribution to this discussion.

 

[NewTexian]

Hah... It happens all the time with whole hop purchases. They are little tiny round balls, you have to really look for them.

That's what she said.

 

[strumke]

Anyone get any wet hops yet? If so, how many pounds, and how many bine pieces did you get?

 

[bottlebomber]

Anyone get any wet hops yet? If so, how many pounds, and how many bine pieces did you get?

I harvested about 15 lbs of wet hops a few days ago. It's looking to be about 1.5 lbs dry. Cascade and Centennial, 2 plants of each, second year.

 

[Crito]

Brewmaster I think is having a wet hop sale

 

[strumke]

I placed an order from my LHBS, just wondering if anyone has gotten any of that 'vegetative material' in wet hops orders yet

 

[CentralWABrewing]

I'm still wondering about these "seeds". Have you grown anything from these before? Don't know of any seeds on a female plant.