ciderrhea?

[ebbelwoi]

A few months back, I completed the switch from beer to cider. After 30+ years as a beer drinker, I rarely touch the stuff anymore, and it doesn't taste that good to me, even my old favorites.

One downside to that is that my system doesn't seem to handle a full cider session very well. Lately, I always end up with very watery diarrhea after about two liters of cider. It doesn't seem to matter whether it's commercial or homemade, and there doesn't seem to be any style of juice, yeast, sweetener or additive that triggers it (as far as I'm aware). Everything I drink is pasteurized, though, for what it's worth.

It could be that my system just doesn't like large amounts of apple juice. I use two cups in my oatmeal a few times a week, and sometimes a glass on the side, and it doesn't affect me. But I've never just chugged two liters of juice, either.

Many years ago, when I was staying with some friends, they gave me fresh-pressed, unpasteurized apple juice from their orchard, and it gave me problems.

Has anybody else had similar experiences? Any remedies? It's a real shame that this happens to me, because I'm really enjoying making and drinking cider.

 

[dmtaylor]

I haven't noticed this. I have problems drinking sweet unfermented juice though.

 

[Maylar]

You're not alone. A good buddy of mine won't sample my cider unless he's home near a crapper. He says even the commercial stuff affects him that way.

 

[SanPancho]

When you say pasteurized you are referring to the juice, not the finished cider correct?

Are you sure you dont see a difference between commercial ciders (i assume pasteurized ) and homebrew?

Sometimes lots of yeast in beer gives people GI issues.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sounds like a sorbitol intolerance.

 

[ebbelwoi]

When you say pasteurized you are referring to the juice, not the finished cider correct?

Are you sure you dont see a difference between commercial ciders (i assume pasteurized ) and homebrew?

Sometimes lots of yeast in beer gives people GI issues.

I also assume the commercial cider I've had is pasteurized. My homemade cider always starts with pasteurized juice. I have tried pasteurizing it again after it's finished fermenting, but it didn't make a difference.

I am sure I don't see a difference between commercial cider and homemade.

 

[Dland]

I'd try adding some honey, or other sugar, and kick it up toward wine alcohol levels, possibly add a champagne yeast if you think what is in it has low attenuation. Have to age it more though, spend more time on it, so that is a down side.

You would have to drink less volume to get where you want, and it is a much better preserved beverage.

 

[ong]

Are the ciders you drink always backsweetened? A lot of unfermentable sugar alcohols (sorbitol, maltitol, xylitol, erithritol) which are used for backsweetening will definitely have that effect.

It might also be worth making a batch of perry and seeing how that sits with you.

 

[madscientist451]

The solution seems pretty simple, stop drinking cider. If beer is no longer an option, You can still enjoy mead, wine and all kinds of distilled spirits.
Life is too short to put something in your body that makes you feel crappy.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It might also be worth making a batch of perry and seeing how that sits with you.

Whoa, time out.

Apple juice has natural sorbitol.
Sorbitol is a laxative, it's why plums (prune juice) are used to help with constipation.

Pears have even more sorbitol than plums. If you're having problems with apple juice, pears will be way worse.

 

[ebbelwoi]

I'd try adding some honey, or other sugar, and kick it up toward wine alcohol levels, possibly add a champagne yeast if you think what is in it has low attenuation. Have to age it more though, spend more time on it, so that is a down side.

You would have to drink less volume to get where you want, and it is a much better preserved beverage.

Thanks, but not interested in a higher ABV. In fact, I backsweeten with juice to get a lower ABV. I might try sweetening/diluting my next batch with ginger ale.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Are the ciders you drink always backsweetened? A lot of unfermentable sugar alcohols (sorbitol, maltitol, xylitol, erithritol) which are used for backsweetening will definitely have that effect.

It might also be worth making a batch of perry and seeing how that sits with you.

I use juice to backsweeten. I have tried a few sugar alcohols in small amounts, but didn't care for the taste. So they're not part of the problem. The commercial cider I drink is also backsweetened with only apple juice.

 

[ebbelwoi]

The solution seems pretty simple, stop drinking cider. If beer is no longer an option, You can still enjoy mead, wine and all kinds of distilled spirits.

Thanks for your input, but the reason I started this thread is to get at the actual problem or find a remedy. I don't particularly enjoy mead, wine or distilled spirits, so I would like to continue drinking cider.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Whoa, time out.

Apple juice has natural sorbitol.
Sorbitol is a laxative, it's why plums (prune juice) are used to help with constipation.

Pears have even more sorbitol than plums. If you're having problems with apple juice, pears will be way worse.

It hasn't been established that sorbitol is actually the problem here. I took a quick look into it, and the first thing I found was this study, which found that Fructose, and not sorbitol, is the sugar responsible for the increase in breath H2 after apple juice consumption and therefore for the diarrhea accompanying excessive apple juice consumption in toddlers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8433238

Not a toddler, but maybe it applies to me as well.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Fructose gets fermented, so no.

Sorbitol isn't fermentable, so it stays regardless of fermentation.

It hasn't been established that sorbitol is actually the problem here.

That's true. The fact that apple juice contains a laxative is just one possible explanation
Try some perry

 

[ebbelwoi]

Fructose gets fermented, so no.

I use juice to backsweeten, at about 20-25% by volume. Juice contains fructose.

The fact that apple juice contains a laxative is just one possible explanation

It certainly is one possible explanation, and I'm looking into it. However, most people don't get diarrhea from drinking cider, so that tells me there may be more to it than that.

Try some perry

I can't get affordable pear juice in my area, so I'm hoping to stick with cider.

Thanks for your input.

 

[ong]

It might be worth trying a really dry pub cider, with very little simple sugar left, to rule out the backsweetening possibility.

 

[ong]

It seems like apple juice averages about .4g/100ml (https://www.kfl.com/spsb.html), so at 2l you’re looking at 8g — maybe 10-12 to be conservative . The laxative dose is normally 20-100h (https://reference.medscape.com/drug/sorbitol-342033). But of course you might have a lower threshold. You could try chewing a bunch of sugar free gum one day when you’re planning to stick close to home!

 

[ebbelwoi]

It seems like apple juice averages about .4g/100ml (https://www.kfl.com/spsb.html), so at 2l you’re looking at 8g — maybe 10-12 to be conservative . The laxative dose is normally 20-100h (https://reference.medscape.com/drug/sorbitol-342033). But of course you might have a lower threshold. You could try chewing a bunch of sugar free gum one day when you’re planning to stick close to home!

Thanks! That's very useful information... just the sort of thing I was looking for.

There are very few commercial ciders in my area, so when my next batch finishes up, I'll skip the backsweetening and so what happens. I'll pick up some sorbitol candy today, too.

I've read that balancing glucose and fructose may help. I may try backsweetening with dextrose (glucose) and see what happens.

 

[RPh_Guy]

That's just an average, the sorbitol amount can vary greatly.

 

[ebbelwoi]

From the link that ong provided:

 

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

From the link that ong provided:

This is very interesting.... I say keep drinking cider for your health!*

Y’all check out this short docu on apfelwein in Frankfurt!

(OP already knows some of what I mention below)

URL]

Apparently in Frankfurt, it’s somewhat well-known that drinking the pure fermented apple must (traditionally called “apfelwein, ebbelwoi, appelwoi, and a few other variant spellings) provides relief from constipation.

Furthermore, Manfred Wagner who owns an apfelwein garden called “Klaane Sachsehauser” in Sachsenhausen, mentions something in that docu about making sure to be near a toilet when drinking apfelwein. You can also see an old-timey double photo in a frame, of a child on a chamber pot, apparently depicting how apfelwein relieves constipation**

Manfred Wagner also says these two gems:

“Apfelwein means to me, something healthy.”

&

“Whoever goes to drink apfelwein is in good hands... and is doing something for their well-being.”

So once again, I say drink up. Evacuate that junk outta ya.

* & **These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration***

***Yes; that was LOADED with facetiousness, belying my disdain for the FDA

 

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

I guess my point is: apfelwein is traditionally dry, so the fact that it is still colloquially known to have a laxative effect on the bowels is interesting, and perhaps points to a complimentary effect from the malic acid, aiding digestion and assisting gastric emptying. Now you got me wondering...

Wait a minute... I know that apple juice has a significant amount of Vitamin C, and come to think of it: an alternative treatment that is done to flush toxins is to consume high amounts of “buffered Vitamin C” in a hours-long session.

It is buffered in the sense that it is bioavailable and the body absorbs it very quickly and efficiently. The body then reaches a point where it has enough Vitamin C to satisfy the requirement to make new lymphatic fluid and flush the old lymphatic fluid out. That presents as diarrhea, but with no sick feeling due to all the water and minerals consumed along with the C. Sort of like an oil-change: The mechanic doesn’t empty the old oil until he knows he has some to put back. Suddenly a truckload of new oil shows up and he’s in business to do oil some changes! Same with Vitamin C and lymphatic fluid.

So maybe the Vitamin C content is also contributing to what you’ve been experiencing. Do you experience a queasy or sick feeling? Do you feel weak after?

 

[ebbelwoi]

One of the first things I considered was vitamin C. I sometimes take N-Acetyl Cysteine for hangover prevention. It works best with lots of C, but my research told me that apple juice didn't contain enough of it to activate its magical properties.

I actually just got home from a night out, and I brought my cider along: 3 1.5-liter bottles of Kirkland (fresh-pressed, pasteurized), two made with Safale S-04, one with my musty favorite, Nottingham sandwiched between them. I made sure not to have any apple juice in the morning. Anyway, I made it through to the end of the Notty, and then all cider broke loose. I also had some trial capsules of Enzymedica's Digest Gold on hand, so I decided to give those a try. Took one before I started, and another after the first 1.5-liter bottle. Didn't seem to matter much.

My cider is backsweetened... I ferment it to dry, then add enough juice to get back to a gravity of maybe 1.015. Might make a difference, might not, I don't know.

I did notice the toilet references in that documentary. I wasn't sure whether they were referring to 1 or 2, but now I think I understand.

My next move is to try sweetening with dextrose, in an effort to offset the fructose/sorbitol. Might be another week or more before I get a chance. Thanks everyone for contributing, though..

 

[ong]

Honestly, if I put away 4.5 liters of any alcoholic beverage, I would not be surprised to feel a little squiffy (and I’m not a small guy).

 

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

From Stoeffsche.de/gesund.html (courtesy Google Chrome translation)...

(see 1-3 and 13)

“A medical-scientific inventory of cider theoretically yields the following positive effects:

1) Stimulation of the digestive glands and thus digestion.

2) Improvement of the gastric circulation.

3) In older people is often a hydrochloric acid deficiency (restriction to absence) before, which is compensated by cider (compensated).

4) The alcohol in cider works together with hydrochloric acid bactericidal and prevents contagious stomach and intestinal diseases (prophylaxis). The development of pathogenic bacteria is inhibited and bacteria are killed. In intestinal infections such as typhoid fever, dysentery, paratyphoid fever, cholera and coliform infections in the renal pelvis, urinary bladder and gall bladder, the wine is bactericidal. Also in the meat encapsulated Trichinella
be dissolved and killed.

5) Side effects of digitalis are compensated.

6) The blood level of therapeutically applied antibiotics (penicillin) is kept up longer.

7) The breathing is deepened and the minute volume increased.

8) A solution of bronchospasm (bronchial spasm) in asthmatic conditions is observed.

9) Hot cider with cinnamon, sugar and lemon juice is effective for flu-like infections, bronchitis and colds.

10) A perfusion improvement of the heart muscle (coronary vessels) and a calming of the psyche (tensions) is observed, so that complaints in the sense of angina pectoris can be improved. The analgesic component of the wine also plays a favorable role here.

11) Cider has an antihypertensive effect on hypertension and stabilizes the blood pressure.

12) Low-dose cider in particular prevents the
accumulation of fat droplets in the blood , which are built up by fatty substances (cholesterol, ß-lipoproteins, neutral fats or triglycerides), and lowers blood lipid levels.

13) Apple cider stimulates the excretion of fluid with drainage of the metabolic waste (diuresis). The real Frankfurters use and appreciate the Rauscher as Herbstreinigungskur.

14) Cider captures sad moods and counteracts a contact poverty.

15) A glass of cider in the evening promotes sleep.

16) Psycho-vegetative syndromes (autonomic dystonia, neurasthenia, vegetative
lability, tension, nervousness) are resolved or ameliorated.

17) Activating the vasodilatory effect could help improve the cardiovascular system by improving coronary blood flow (coronary blood flow).

18) Subjectively valuable, the elderly person as a senior perceives the improvement of cerebral circulation through which he is promoted in his mental activity. For many, this means delaying the aging process and making it more bearable. Some depressed
inclinations and lack of contact can be absorbed.”

 

[RPh_Guy]

LOL

 

[ebbelwoi]

Honestly, if I put away 4.5 liters of any alcoholic beverage, I would not be surprised to feel a little squiffy (and I’m not a small guy).

Sorry if my post wasn't clear... I'd had quite a bit of cider by then. Anyway, I got the old cider surprise after about 2-2.5 liters... not much more than a six-pack. I could put away a case of beer on a good night and not get the runs, so I'm sure it's not simply a matter of volume.

I had a colonoscopy (unrelated) this morning. I was supposed to avoid solid food an non-clear drinks the day before, so I took it as an opportunity to see what effect unfermented apple juice would have on me, and it definitely had a laxative effect. Yesterday, the doctor asked whether I had any digestive issues, and my fiancee brought up the ciderrhea. I mentioned it was probably the sorbitol, and the doctor (gastroenterologist) mumbled something like, "Yeah, probably," and that was the end of that. So I'm going to go with rph guy's assessment that it's the sorbitol content that's causing the problem.

So... that leaves me with a few options if I want to continue making and drinking cider (and I do):

1) Find a juice with a lower sorbitol content. For reference, I've been using Kirkland Signature juice from Costco. I wish juice makers put the sorbitol content of their juices on the label, but that's not a realistic expectation.
2) Find a way to neutralize the sorbitol. I picked up some dextrose today for backsweetening, but I have my doubts whether it'll do the trick.
3) Dilute the cider. I'm thinking of trying a) grape juice, b) sangria, c) simple syrup made with dextrose, and d) sweetening with dextrose and adding non-alcoholic beer (I've done this with commercial cider and the results aren't bad).

Thanks everyone for the input.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Interesting fact: Many Lacto species/strains can ferment sorbitol.
To complicate matters, some Lacto species/strains (notably L. plantarum) can produce sorbitol in the presence of glucose.

Are you up for experimenting?
Grab a bottle of sorbitol, mix up sample(s), maybe like 5% sorbitol and some nutrient, and see if you can find a Lacto strain that will ferment it. Add yeast for good measure.
If you see the FG drop you have a winner.

Good luck.

But wait there's more!
How's this for outside the box?
Make a session mead (or use some other sugar like dextrose, but that sounds worse). Add the peels from your favorite varieties of apples. Snap, a delicious apple melomel, tailored to your taste in apples.
Half the apple flavor is in the peel, but no sorbitol. Use organic or you'll get pesticides.

Cheers