Cider - Off Flavor Info

[732Brewer]

Long story short - I tried making cider twice and there was an off flavor in both batches. One thing I did in common was not racking into a secondary. Anybody have any input? I sanitized all of my equipment, the second batch more then the first (as I thought that was the issue). I tried two kinds of yeast also but no luck. Both batches were also non-flavored so I am wondering if there is an off flavor naturally and the added flavoring would cover it up. Since I made a 3 gallon and 5 gallon batch both fail, I am at a loss for what the issues could have been. Taste wise, it has a harsher taste to it that I can get used to if I drink a few glasses but the first few sips are ughh

Also, I aged out the second one for 7 months, thinking that was the issue. Anybody rack out a few times? Maybe that is my issue?

 

[Yooper]

I always rack off of the sedment, just like I do for wine, and I always top up so that there is no headspace, just like with wine. I've never had an off flavor in my cider.

What kind of off flavor are you tasting? Bitter? "hot"? tart? dirty socks? like sherry or brandy? Cardboard? Plastic?

Whatever you can do to describe the flavor, even if it's something like "rubbery goat", we can help figure out where it's coming from.

 

[732Brewer]

I always rack off of the sedment, just like I do for wine, and I always top up so that there is no headspace, just like with wine. I've never had an off flavor in my cider.

What kind of off flavor are you tasting? Bitter? "hot"? tart? dirty socks? like sherry or brandy? Cardboard? Plastic?

Whatever you can do to describe the flavor, even if it's something like "rubbery goat", we can help figure out where it's coming from.

Ill crack open another bottle and figure out how to explain it. When you say top off the headspace you are saying you do this w/ boiled water? If I don't rack it, what sort of flavor would I have due to not taking this step?

 

[AidanSavage]

Ill crack open another bottle and figure out how to explain it. When you say top off the headspace you are saying you do this w/ boiled water? If I don't rack it, what sort of flavor would I have due to not taking this step?

I think the specifics for dealing with headspace are brewer-dependent. Some will add straight tap water while others will add in more apple juice (whether from a bottle, reconstituted out of a can, or the concentrate directly out of the can), and I think some would even add in a neutral-flavor alcohol to avoid changing the taste.

Racking the cider means you're taking it off the sediment/lees/yeast cake/whatever which can definitely give an off-flavor if left sitting on it too long.


Also, random thought- did you properly sanitize everything when you were making the batches? Including the carboy/bottle/fermenter?

 

[732Brewer]

^Ya the racking I didn't do either time - that is the only thing I can think of. Both times I sanitized properly and I made extra sure to soak things longer in the second batch. I am not home right now but it had a bite to the taste and if I made it ice cold it would go away more (meaning the warmer the cider the more you tasted it).

 

[732Brewer]

I opened another bottle and it has a sour taste. I have only tried homebrew cider with things added, so I am not 100% what is what. Cider is cider, beer is beer. This is my only second cider batch. First batch was with a dry packet of champagne yeast and the second was with white labs liquid cider yeast (so im going to say the yeast is not the issue). First batch I didn't add sugar. Second batch I added 2lbs light brown sugar (along w/ the white labs yeast). I tired to mix things up so things would taste different.

 

[732Brewer]

I just added splenda (just to taste) and its a lot better. The sweet offset the sour. Anything else I can do to fix this? It actually tastes good now. Ive spilled a lot out over the past 7months. Jeze. I guess you learn.

Next batch I am going to rack it, then age it racked, then add sweetner (then bottle). That recipe should make a good batch. Might add another 1lb of brown sugar also.

 

[Yooper]

Well, if it's "tart" (not "sour"), it simply means you have dry cider. I know it's counterintuitive, but adding brown sugar at fermentation means it's drier than without it, since the simple sugar ferments out. I find fermented out brown sugar very odd tasting, since without the sweetness, there is only a weird non-sweet molasses flavor.

Since sweetening improved it, you could either stabilize it (campden and sorbate), racking off of the lees to do it, and then sweeten to taste and bottle, OR use a non-fermentable sweetener, and bottle it and carb it up (or not) if you like carbonated cider.

 

[732Brewer]

What would be better to use then brown sugar to get a higher abv?

 

[Yooper]

What would be better to use then brown sugar to get a higher abv?

Well, if you want to make apple wine (instead of hard cider), a neutral sugar like simple table sugar or dextrose would be fine, but then you'd lose much of the "cider" flavor of the cider.

Boosting the ABV with sugar means a much more "wine like" flavor and less apple flavor to the finished cider.

One of the best cider recipes, ever, is this:

apple cider from tart apples (good tasting fresh cider)
s04 ale yeast. That's it.

If you want to add fermentables, that's fine of course- but it will be more of an apple wine than hard cider. You can add honey, and make a cyser. That's pretty good, too, but not exactly like plain hard cider.

 

[732Brewer]

What do you think of 1lb dextrose and one 1lb honey (some type not determined)

 

[732Brewer]

I have another 8 months to plan this out but am thinking of adding 1lb honey and maybe some type of sugar. I am sure it would come out good with 2lbs honey but want to use half the amount the first round.

 

[AidanSavage]

I'd honestly recommend trying it with just plain sugar to start, without adding any honey into it. Keep in mind you'd need to also figure out what your end ABV target is, and use a yeast capable of reaching that point. Additionally, you can also try stepping the sugar instead of adding it all at once.

For example, let's say you're trying to make a cider/apple wine using a yeast capable of (for the purpose of this example) fermenting to 25% ABV. You decide you want to ferment it with just enough sugar to reach 23%. Your OG you'd need to aim for would be 1.160*, which means your total sugar content would be around 3 lb 9 oz per USGal. Assuming the juice you start with has an OG of 1.060, that comes out to a sugar content of 1 lb 6 oz, leaving you needing to add 2 lb 3 oz of sugar per gallon to reach your target OG.

Without doing more internet research than necessary, I dont know what the solution density is that you can achieve with apple juice without having to resort to other methods of increasing the dissolved sugar content. So this means you've got to increase your OG by 1.100 to get the alcohol you want, but you cant add all of the sugar immediately at the start. However, you can add the sugar at 3 points, first preparation, 4-5 days into fermentation, and then 8-10 days into fermentation. Say, 15 ounces with the first prep, then 10 ounces at the first "checkpoint" and then the last 10 ounces at the second "checkpoint" for the necessary total of 2lb3oz needed.

Two big things to consider though, most yeasts wont be able to tolerate such high ABV and will die off, so if you added too much sugar, you might be drinking what amounts to paint thinner with a bag of sugar added. On the other hand, if you did pick a yeast that could tolerate such high ABV (champagne yeasts are supposedly such beasts), what you'd have as a result is something that would be absolutely wretched until aged for a year or more.




*All figures based on this chart: www.brsquared.org/wine/CalcInfo/HydSugAl.htm

(I'm sure there's some/all of it innacurate, but the more knowledgeable ones will point them out. I'd also appreciate it if someone such as yoopers could give that chart linked above a look and see if it's something worth using as a reference.)

 

[Paps]

Whatever you can do to describe the flavor, even if it's something like "rubbery goat", we can help figure out where it's coming from.

What exactly does a "rubbery goat" taste like and how do you know this??
......erm
......nevermind....i really don't think i want to know the answer to this.
:cross:

 

[WVMJ]

Is it a sour taste like vinegar or a sharp taste like acid? Seems if you sweetened it up a little you are on the right track for correcting an acid taste. We like to make cysers so dump in the honey, it gives an extra bit of body to your cider that sugar doesnt. Do you have a hydrometer so you can tell what is really going on during the ferments? Yoop has spent a good bit of time helping you out, one way or the other we are going to get something good in your bottle? Are you adding and sulfites at the begining to stop contamination in the juice? What are you sanatising everything with? WVMJ

 

[732Brewer]

I wish I was able to answer more about the taste of it but I do know the sweeter I made it, the better it was and it masked it (but then it became too sweet and since it is artificial sweeter, it had that kind of taste now). The good part is, it went from not drinkable to pretty decent just by the sweetness change. For 2015 ill need to try both a plain cider and one batch with some honey. I was thinking orange blossom honey (1lb of that to start). ABV, I don't know what I would be going for on either batch (because I am a few years away from trying enough combos to know what I am going to shoot for). I am an engineer so the more complex the better (which sounds about right for my mindset). My goal is to make something great so I can make a big run after and keep it for a few years to age. I had a 2yr old cider the other night that was so smooth. I want to stay away from the campaign yeast, try the white labs again, and something else. Anybody with more input on yeast, that would be great (maybe someone that knows what would work good for what I am trying achieve).

Lastly,
I was also thinking about adding campden and pectic enzyme before my yeast. That might also make for a clearer, more stable, fermentation.

 

[WVMJ]

Sounds like you are trying to reinvent the cider wheel here SOP sulfites at the start to knock out bad bugs, pectinase to help clear, hydrometer to tell you exactly what your gravities are so it can be reproducible. Not sure what the reluctance is to use all honey if you want to raise the SG, we do it all the time and its great way to add some nuance and body, it has proteins so may need to be fined or bulk aged longer. You seem to be talking about aging like for a wine, you have to build it up from the start to make a good ager for a long time and should start to consider tannins in your cider as they help age and protect your cider, and also wether to promote or inhibit MLF. You could take these big steps now and get going and refine things from there, but you engineer guys like to do things the slow hard way to see for yourselves what everyoneelse already knows Some yeasts we find work well in cider are QA23, D47, RBS133 for cider and cysers, for higher content honey, like 33% honey cysers something like Premier Cuvee or EC118 do a great job. There are a couple of new cidermaking books out lately, mostly about craft cidermaking, funny enough most of them just use a champagne yeast and dont go around trying different yeasts but focus more on the input from the apples. WVMJ

 

[AidanSavage]

I wish I was able to answer more about the taste of it but I do know the sweeter I made it, the better it was and it masked it (but then it became too sweet and since it is artificial sweeter, it had that kind of taste now). The good part is, it went from not drinkable to pretty decent just by the sweetness change. For 2015 ill need to try both a plain cider and one batch with some honey. I was thinking orange blossom honey (1lb of that to start). ABV, I don't know what I would be going for on either batch (because I am a few years away from trying enough combos to know what I am going to shoot for). I am an engineer so the more complex the better (which sounds about right for my mindset). My goal is to make something great so I can make a big run after and keep it for a few years to age. I had a 2yr old cider the other night that was so smooth. I want to stay away from the campaign yeast, try the white labs again, and something else. Anybody with more input on yeast, that would be great (maybe someone that knows what would work good for what I am trying achieve).

Lastly,
I was also thinking about adding campden and pectic enzyme before my yeast. That might also make for a clearer, more stable, fermentation.

Just bottled my first batch using nottingham last night, unsweetened, it was extremely dry (in taste, not necessarily FG), almost like champagne, with little in the way of apple flavor. Backsweetened it with a can of FAJC, with just enough hot water added so that it was less slushy and more like juice with a bit of crushed ice. Swirled around gently to mix, and after the first bottle was filled with some difficulty, I managed 10.5 bottles of it. Taste was so much better as well, definite apple flavor, tart bite, and no longer so obviously dry.


Regarding your future batches, a good aim is about 5-8% ABV. Using Nottingham yeast can help as it doesnt eat through sugar as incredibly fast as the champagne yeasts do. I'm liking the results well enough to keep using it, personally. Have you considered (or tried, this being aimed at WVMJ) fermenting both batches like a plain cider using apples and apple products only to reach a target OG, then once fermented, sweeten one batch with honey and the other with FAJC/nothing?

 

[732Brewer]

Please post some URL's of products used, as this post has many interesting points/topics/directions

 

[kgressler]

AS when you say dry in taste not in FG what was the fg at? Reading CvilleKevin's thread he says around 1.004 to 1.012 is where to cold crashes his. He says it's still dry but plenty of apple flavor. Although this is with real cider not store brand type.
Curious what type of cider you used and if you cold crashed at a certain gravity or let it go to zero?

 

[AidanSavage]

AS when you say dry in taste not in FG what was the fg at? Reading CvilleKevin's thread he says around 1.004 to 1.012 is where to cold crashes his. He says it's still dry but plenty of apple flavor. Although this is with real cider not store brand type.
Curious what type of cider you used and if you cold crashed at a certain gravity or let it go to zero?

Used FAJC as a base, added at most a 1/4 cup of sugar and about a tablespoon of honey to it along with 2 small crushed apples worth of juice. Since I dont have a hydro, and likely wont get one until christmas, I simply cold-crashed it on day 7 (last Thursday, started fermentation Thanksgiving morning). It definitely was not dry, however, as it was still actively fermenting, with no noticeable airlock activity.

 

[WVMJ]

It definitely was not dry, however, as it was still actively fermenting, with no noticeable airlock activity.

Does it make sense that there is an active ferment but no airlock activity? WVMJ

 

[AidanSavage]

Does it make sense that there is an active ferment but no airlock activity? WVMJ

Just like it makes sense that's what's happening as the fermenting first starts out. Yeast eating away at the sugar, but not enough CO2 production to create enough pressure to change water levels in the airlock.

 

[WVMJ]

Yeah but you already have a big population of yeast to eat this now right? Just asking. WVMJ

 

[AidanSavage]

Yeah but you already have a big population of yeast to eat this now right? Just asking. WVMJ

Only whatever remained in suspension after 3 days of cold crashing.


edit: Sorry, been a long day of gift shopping. I'll... add more and/or give a more intelligent reply after I get some sleep.

 

[esmestad]

I just tasted my homebrew cider last night that I started a month and a half ago. this is the recipe.

5 gallons pressed cider from orchard (non pasturized)
3 lbs. honey
White Labs English Cider Yeast (1 packet)
OG: 1.07
FG: .099

I bottled it two weeks ago and popped one open last night. There is a definite off flavor. It's sour and dry as I had wanted, but it taste like cough syrup. I'm hoping it just needs to age more but does anyone have experience with this type of flavor or any suggestions? Is the batch garbage or will that flavor go away? Any thoughts on the matter are appreciated.

 

[Yooper]

"Cough syrup" usually ages out. It's because you've got a pretty high alcohol cyser there.

Sometimes honey takes quite a while to mellow, but when it does, it's very nice.

Your FG was .990, I assume as .099 makes no sense. Anyway, the cough syrup taste will fade with age, if it's because of the booziness.

 

[esmestad]

"Cough syrup" usually ages out. It's because you've got a pretty high alcohol cyser there.

Sometimes honey takes quite a while to mellow, but when it does, it's very nice.

Your FG was .990, I assume as .099 makes no sense. Anyway, the cough syrup taste will fade with age, if it's because of the booziness.

Thank you for your response. I was pretty worried about it, but its pretty young still so I'll let it sit for a few months. And yes, I did mean .990.

Thanks again!