Cider House Rules

[CidahMastah]

Ashyg - The must will clear without pectic enzyme but the fermentation must stop first. The must can take some time to clear on its own, but it will.

If you heat must sometimes it activates the pectin and the cider is then forever cloudy.

So if you follow pappers instructions using a fresh pressed cider instead of store bought juice you may run into cloudy issues (since you won't be waiting the 2-3 weeks or so to let it clear naturally). Any experience with that pappers? Ever make this with fresh pressed cider? I prefer cloudy cider in many instances, looks and feels authentic - but that is me.

 

[Pappers_]

Just some food for thought. I get that people want to be "natural" and "organic". But just because intuitively it makes good sense, don't make it so.... Responsible sulphite additions in wines are practical and perfectly safe. Alcohol... that is another story

Yup, sulphite additions are common, I have no problem with people choosing to use them. People get to make choices.

Its curious to me why people often get up in arms when someone (me) chooses not to use additional sulphites, or to use organic malts and hops, or anything else that they see as 'green'. Feel free to use the additions - I certainly do when I adjust my brew water, for example. But, to say that not using additives doesn't make good sense is misguided, in my opinion.

No one's telling you not to use additives - thanks for not telling me that I must.

 

[Pappers_]

So if you follow pappers instructions using a fresh pressed cider instead of store bought juice you may run into cloudy issues (since you won't be waiting the 2-3 weeks or so to let it clear naturally). Any experience with that pappers? Ever make this with fresh pressed cider? I prefer cloudy cider in many instances, looks and feels authentic - but that is me.

For the type of cider referred to in Meadwitch's thread - draft style light sparkling bottle-conditioned cider - I use store bought juice and stove-top pasteurize it. I do use fresh-pressed juice to make other sorts of cider - more complex, layered, and still. So no, I don't pasteurize that type of cider.

 

[MeadWitch]

Yup, sulphite additions are common, I have no problem with people choosing to use them. People get to make choices.

Its curious to me why people often get up in arms when someone (me) chooses not to use additional sulphites, or to use organic malts and hops, or anything else that they see as 'green'. Feel free to use the additions - I certainly do when I adjust my brew water, for example. But, to say that not using additives doesn't make good sense is misguided, in my opinion.

No one's telling you not to use additives - thanks for not telling me that I must.

I choose not to use sulphites because it makes it hard for me breathe, if it didn't do that to me, I might use it certain types of cider.

 

[dinnerstick]

Sigma chemicals rates soduim metabisulfite as 'Harmful' and potassium metabisulfite as merely 'Irritant'. (The only warning for ethanol is 'Flammable' so drink up.)
My (limited) understanding is that the sulfite ions are the guys doing the heavy lifting in hindering bacteria etc., and the two parent compounds yield the same amount of sulfite ions per mole. so why would one (K) be preferred by many over the other (Na) and which one is in my campden powder (which remains unopened in my drawer)?
And with Na2S2O5 how much Na is released via SO2?? i gather there is no equivalent KO2 as this is a solid... out of my depth here
I don't particularly want to use the stuff but if i do i would like to know what i'm doing.
but for those of us who just put cider in a jug and wait for it to ferment, rack, wait, bottle, wait, drink, things seem to go perfectly well without sulfites. so i will continue on as a luddite. Very interesting thread though.
And meadwitch- do you get sulfite intolerance from wines? i hope not for your sake!
and how do you get by without sulfite-laden slim jims? (other disgusting processed meat products are available)

 

[Knight03]

I have got to try this. Did I miss the ABV of this anywhere?

 

[CidahMastah]

Dinnerstick - your sigma chemical rating is precisely why I said, if you are going to use sulphites use k-meta only and not Na-meta. There are some great scientific papers on sulphite usage too - which is why I went so nuts researching it prior to using. There are also common sense ways to tell if you over sulphited (smell is one of them). Depending on your apples sulphites may be needed. If you are buying store bought juice and pay attention to limit O2 when you rack your will probably be ok much of the time without sulphiting. Additionally, if you innoculate with yeast Asap with fresh cider the strain you use will likely beat out the aceteo yeasts that make cider taste vinegary if left unchecked. If you are in control of your apples you can control or remove sulphites, if you buy apples for most of your cider (like i did this year) then you probably should sulfite on some level becuase you don't know the history of the apples (contact with deer, or other animal feces). I didn't by drops, so that shouldn't have been an issue, but I digress...

Pappers - no offense meant to you or meadwitch. I am certainly not telling you guys to use sulfites. I do most things I can organic, I grow my own food, etc. and make responsible decisions about the food I do buy and do eat. My wife and I do more "organic" than most. We can our crops, we have a root cellar, we simply don't waste anything because we respect our food and where it comes from. Guess I have some latent issue about all the people in NYC who bragged about eating an organic carrot like it was some cool fad to be a part of instead of seeing being organic as a lifestyle choice. So sorry if I came across wrong - a thousand apologies.

All that said, for my "estate" (ha) apples I was able to sulphite less, but still wanted to use most of the fruit witch was riddled with imperfections and possibly a worm or two here and there. So for my Northern spy trees that I controlled I used less sulphite.

Don't get me wrong I would love to remove sulphite period. My sole point was that it is safe when used responsibly. As dinnerstick pointed out it is in all kinds of foods and if you don't get reactions from slim jims, dried fruits etc., it might not me sulphites that bother you. They are a widely used preservative.

My comment about alcohol was a tongue and cheek. Would I have about 98 gallons of cider varieties working if I was concerned about the effects of alcohol? haha everything in moderation? Not with cider! This year the motto was go big or go home

 

[CidahMastah]

I choose not to use sulphites because it makes it hard for me breathe, if it didn't do that to me, I might use it certain types of cider.

MeadWitch - do you mean when you open a container of it and it makes you sort of lose your breathe? I noticed this too when I bought a larger bag of K-Meta. The reason why is that k-meta absorbed oxygen readily - which is why it is useful in preventing oxidation and bacterial growth in wines. Always use in a well ventilated area. This might be part of the reason why is is classed as an irritant. If there is kmeta dust coming up out of the bag and you inhale....

 

[dinnerstick]

my girlfriend has a sulfite intolerance, i've seen it, she has heart palpitations and gets flushed and breathless (insert self-deprecating sexual innuendo here), and it ain't pretty, scary actually... but never from italian wines, no clue why that is. and mostly from southern hemisphere wines. maybe it pours out the jar counter-clockwise down there

 

[CidahMastah]

my girlfriend has a sulfite intolerance, i've seen it, she has heart palpitations and gets flushed and breathless (insert self-deprecating sexual innuendo here), and it ain't pretty, scary actually... but never from italian wines, no clue why that is. and mostly from southern hemisphere wines. maybe it pours out the jar counter-clockwise down there

funny stuff man! Well the innuendo anyway! Not cool that she has the intollerance to it. It might be sheer concentration of the sulfites (different producers use different amounts; whites have more sulfites than reds traditionally). I have always heard of sulphite ailments referred to as "sensitivities". So perhaps she isn't reaching the sulphite threshold to bother her. I know dried fruits have a lot of sulfites too. In fact, when I grabbed a bag of raisins to make a New England style cider the ingredients listed sulphites. I was surprised.

Drink the wine that tastes good

 

[MeadWitch]

Dinnerstick - I rarely can find a sulfite free wine on the market, but never fear we have a company here in Texas called Water to Wine and they make several sulfite free wines in house. I don't do slimjims but instead I have beef jerky that a good friend of mine makes and sells. There are some things that bother me more than other, the worst being lillies. Yes, the flower. My whole throat starts to close up and my chest gets real tight. I know grapes from Chile have loads of pesticides maybe that is why your GF can't drink southern wines?

CidahMistah - no offense taken. Knowing that I react to injesting sulfites, I have never purchased any. I just figure that years ago, cider and mead were made under worse circumstances than my kitchen and nobody died, so going without it is more than doable.

Well, tomorrow night is pasturization night for my spiced winter cider. I like it but I love the Light Draft Style aka Cider House Rules cider. Hoping to get that batch started on Sunday.

 

[gregbathurst]

Sigma chemicals rates soduim metabisulfite as 'Harmful' and potassium metabisulfite as merely 'Irritant'. (The only warning for ethanol is 'Flammable' so drink up.)
My (limited) understanding is that the sulfite ions are the guys doing the heavy lifting in hindering bacteria etc., and the two parent compounds yield the same amount of sulfite ions per mole. so why would one (K) be preferred by many over the other (Na) and which one is in my campden powder (which remains unopened in my drawer)?
And with Na2S2O5 how much Na is released via SO2?? i gather there is no equivalent KO2 as this is a solid... out of my depth here
I don't particularly want to use the stuff but if i do i would like to know what i'm doing.
but for those of us who just put cider in a jug and wait for it to ferment, rack, wait, bottle, wait, drink, things seem to go perfectly well without sulfites. so i will continue on as a luddite. Very interesting thread though.
And meadwitch- do you get sulfite intolerance from wines? i hope not for your sake!
and how do you get by without sulfite-laden slim jims? (other disgusting processed meat products are available)

Hey, a bit late to this thread but thought I would answer some Qs about sulfite (so2). Potassium and sodium metabisulfite and both fine to use. There is a little more so2 in sodium meta but not enough to make much difference. The Na or K involved are not important at such low dosage levels eg 50ppm. Both metabisulfites are very poisonous in large doses and should be handled very carefully. Camden tablets are sodium meta.

so2 is used to help stabilise cider or wine for storage. Its not essential but reduces the risk of spoilage and oxidation. If you don't use so2 you should be very careful in handling your cider after primary fermentation.

Primary fermentation binds most so2 so it is not active anymore. After primary finishes your cider is unprotected.

One important aspect of so2 is to prevent malolactic fermentation (mlf). If you don't use sulfites you will probably get a wild mlf at some stage, which will take a lot of sharpness out of your cider. Whether this is good or bad depends on your preference.

Finally, use of so2 depends a lot on pH. At pH above 3.8 so2 is not very effective, best pH is around 3.4.

Hope that helps someone.