Cider Aisle

[JawZziff]

This is my first brew log. Let me know how it looks. I call it my Cider Aisle.

I picked up 2.5 gallons of Ryans Cider from Walmart. I found it near the veggie section in a cooler marked Organic Juice. It says on the jug flashed pasteurized. This is my 3rd attempt with this stuff. 2nd attempt is currently bottle conditioning but tasters seem like it's missing something, I did no acid additions and used Bry -97 ale yeast. The 1st attempt I don't want to talk about.

I dumped it all in the fermentor straight from the jugs and added 1.5 tsp of yeast nutrient. I had basic acid blend and started with 3 tsp addition. After a taste I added 1 more, another taste, 1 more tsp, 5 total.

I got lucky on my yeast I think. I have Nottingham ale yeast on hand so that's what I went with but my last minute research tells me this is a preferred yeast by many. So that's cool. I was lazy and pitched the dry stuff straight into the fermentor. I have my sofc programed to 16°C ambient air so that should keep it in a good range.

Thoughts? My only uncertainty (besides shady yeast pitching) is the acid addition. 1st time trying this with anything and I see lots of people add it in post ferment. Am I going to be ok or will this create fermentation problems? My logic says no because good cider for brewing is usually naturally acidic so why would this be different? This stuff was pretty sweet with little bite. I just added acid to where I liked it without going overboard.

Pictures for proof;
View attachment 1456289051076.jpg

 

[bembel]

5 t acid for 2.5 gallons will be tart. But if the juice was flat to start it sounds about right. 1 t /g adds 1.5 g/l TA and 5.5 to 7.5 is a good range. Flat juice is sometimes as low as 3 so you put in in the middle with your additions. But one more thing to consider. For home cider making, unless you want to ferment to dryness in a week and strip off all flavor and aroma, never, ever, use nutrient. It is one of the biggest fallacies in this forum. Nnutrient is the last thing you want to add. There are centuries of cider making techniques dedicated to removing nutrients to slow fermentation and preserve residual sugar. I stopped using nutrients after I started taking to craft cider makers. You want low and slow and nutrients contribute to the opposite. Good luck!

 

[JawZziff]

thanks bembel! that's interesting. I guess I always assumed nutrient was a good thing no matter what. I'll have to see how this goes compared to without nutrient.

as for acid, I wish I had a test kit but I do not. I would assume this brand will stay pretty consistent so next go around I'll have a better idea how much to add and adjust from there.

 

[MarkKF]

With low nutrients the yeast doesn't just slow it gets stressed. Stressed yeast gives off odors that can effect taste. I always use it with ale or cider yeast and f.g. Is usually 1.004. I'm inclined to agree with you for monster yeasts like EC-1118 and Pasteur.

 

[1bottlerocket]

That is interesting. I used a nutrient with my first batch and it did ferment quite rapidly with no off-odors or detestable smells. It is quite sour though and I am going to sweeten it up a bit before bottling.

I am going to try a non-nutrient batch next. There seems to be a lot of debate on both sides of the aisle to use nutrients or not with the majority of what I read advocating for their use.

 

[JawZziff]

it seems that way. I'm quite ok with this thread becoming a debate about this.

I'm curious to know if having a nice low fermentation temp will have the same effect bembel is talking about.

right now I'm just over 24 hours in and I've got a nice slow bubble. with ambient air at 16 C this definitely keeps things calm in there.

 

[bembel]

If you are at all serious about making quality cider I suggest reading the book, "The New Cider Makers Handbook". It will save you a lot of time otherwise wasted learning things the hard way. And do get an acid test kit. For $10 it will give you a critical tool to adjust both pre and post ferment and is as important to a cider maker as a wort chiller is to a serious brewer.

Incidentally there are enormous amounts of nutrients present in any commercial apple juice made from dessert apples due to the fertilizers used in the orchards. This is why the best ciders available are made from old growth orchards with crappy nitrogen depleted soil, 'dem apples make the best 'real' cider. If a Woodchuck clone is your goal then use champagne yeast and add DAP or Cider Ferm and blow the **** to .998 in 2 weeks. Then you can toss in a can of frozen apple juice concentrate to make it palatable and get drunk, which is what I did until I learned better. The thing that is the hardest to grasp coming from a beer brewing perspective is time. You cannot make a good cider in the time you can make and outstanding beer. The reward for patience will astonish you. So I suggest making as much as you possibly have room for and letting some go low and slow while you experiment with the rest.

 

[ErickJ]

If you are at all serious about making quality cider I suggest reading the book, "The New Cider Makers Handbook". It will save you a lot of time otherwise wasted learning things the hard way. And do get an acid test kit. For $10 it will give you a critical tool to adjust both pre and post ferment and is as important to a cider maker as a wort chiller is to a serious brewer.

Incidentally there are enormous amounts of nutrients present in any commercial apple juice made from dessert apples due to the fertilizers used in the orchards. This is why the best ciders available are made from old growth orchards with crappy nitrogen depleted soil, 'dem apples make the best 'real' cider. If a Woodchuck clone is your goal then use champagne yeast and add DAP or Cider Ferm and blow the **** to .998 in 2 weeks. Then you can toss in a can of frozen apple juice concentrate to make it palatable and get drunk, which is what I did until I learned better. The thing that is the hardest to grasp coming from a beer brewing perspective is time. You cannot make a good cider in the time you can make and outstanding beer. The reward for patience will astonish you. So I suggest making as much as you possibly have room for and letting some go low and slow while you experiment with the rest.

Very awesome post. What test kit do you recommend?

 

[1bottlerocket]

Next time I am going to try and ferment in our cellar, which has an ambient temperature of about 16c and see how that goes. The plan is to try White Labs English Cider Yeast.

 

[bembel]

Very awesome post. What test kit do you recommend?

Most Homebrew shops sell a BSG acid test kit for wine. It containing 4 items; a test tube. A small bottle of Phenolphthalein (color indicating solution,which you only use 3 drops of each test), a slightly larger bottle of sodium hydroxide, and a 3 ml syringe.

You will run out of the sodium hydroxide at a rate of about 15 to 1 for the Phenol and the 3 ml syringe will wear out so you can't read the markings. So keep the test tube and phenol and buy a box of 100 syringes on Amazon for $7 delivered and a 1 liter bottle of Ricca 7350-32 Sodium Hydroxide, 0.100 N. And you have a lifetime supply of acid tests.

One important thing the acid test kit is calibrated for tartaric acid (grapes) not malic acid (apples) so you need to multiple the results by .87 to adjust for the stronger malic to get true readings.

Happy experimenting [emoji519][emoji519][emoji519]

 

[ErickJ]

Most Homebrew shops sell a BSG acid test kit for wine. It containing 4 items; a test tube. A small bottle of Phenolphthalein (color indicating solution,which you only use 3 drops of each test), a slightly larger bottle of sodium hydroxide, and a 3 ml syringe.

You will run out of the sodium hydroxide at a rate of about 15 to 1 for the Phenol and the 3 ml syringe will wear out so you can't read the markings. So keep the test tube and phenol and buy a box of 100 syringes on Amazon for $7 delivered and a 1 liter bottle of Ricca 7350-32 Sodium Hydroxide, 0.100 N. And you have a lifetime supply of acid tests.

One important thing the acid test kit is calibrated for tartaric acid (grapes) not malic acid (apples) so you need to multiple the results by .87 to adjust for the stronger malic to get true readings.

Happy experimenting [emoji519][emoji519][emoji519]

Awesome! Thanks for the advice. I will buy the book. It costs 40 bucks, but I'm sure it's full in valuable information.

 

[bembel]

No need to get it new. Here are used copies with shipping for $26

It is the BIBLE for anyone wanting to dive a little deeper into the craft.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1603584730/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[JawZziff]

awesome! I'm always looking for new literature for my brew library.

I'll be following your advice on an acid kit too. I'm assuming the best time to test and make additions is just before bottling?

 

[bembel]

awesome! I'm always looking for new literature for my brew library.

I'll be following your advice on an acid kit too. I'm assuming the best time to test and make additions is just before bottling?

I actually over test since I'm OCD with cider and prefer to spend time in the basement tinkering with it vs. facing a life of Woodchuck or cleaning the kitchen.

You should ALWAYS test as soon as you get the juice. Getting a PH meter is also not a bad idea, ( and if you brew beer its a good tool to have also)

If the PH of the starting juice is 3.8 or higher, you have a high chance of getting all sorts of bad bacteria, if its lower than 3, you are going to have some tart, hard to ferment issues. So if the PH is 3.8 or above, you want to blend with more acidic juice or malic acid to get things into the desired range. 3.3 - 3.6 is great. Knowing this also give you the ability to sulfite with greater precision, the lower the PH, the more effective K-Meta is and the less you need to use.

So, a final TA of 5-6 g/l is a great target to have enough snap to remind you it's apple, but not enough to pucker.

If your TA is above 7g/l you might want to make a sparkling, dry cider, as this will compliment the acid.

Measure at the start, then after your 2nd racking, if the TA needs to be adjusted, you can do it now b4 bottling.

But the really neat thing, if you know the TA, there is a general formula to balance against residual sugar. So if for any reason you ended up with a super acidic cider, you can calculate how much sugar you need to back sweeten to make everything balance on the palate. Sure you can do this trial and error, but this gets you closer.

Lastly, if you are worried about Acetobacter you can test the TA and if it increases, you might be able to ID the issue before it ruins the batch.

 

[Maylar]

But the really neat thing, if you know the TA, there is a general formula to balance against residual sugar. So if for any reason you ended up with a super acidic cider, you can calculate how much sugar you need to back sweeten to make everything balance on the palate. Sure you can do this trial and error, but this gets you closer.

Is this in Claude J.'s book? I didn't see that.

 

[JawZziff]

ya a ph meter is on my ever growing list of brew items to buy.

just to give an update; despite lower Temps in the fermentor I can definitely tell the nutrient has given it a boost. maybe 2 days ago I checked and the krausen had fallen but I was still getting a steady bubble at about one per 2 seconds. I don't think I posted the OG, 1060. I don't plan on back sweetening. last time I tried with bry-57 it finished quite nice. not sure what it will be like with Nottingham and the added nutes. but we shall see!

 

[bembel]

Is this in Claude J.'s book? I didn't see that.

Its either in his book or one of his posts in the Google group, Ill dig it up, its a formula to show what level of SG you need to balance the TA

 

[bembel]

Is this in Claude J.'s book? I didn't see that.

I asked him and apparently he didn't remember writing it either, according to his reply...

"I doubt I would have given such a formula, as things aren't so simple!
First, tannins should be considered. For example, many ciders from Brittany may have final SG around 1.015, with low TA (around 3 g/L malic) and high tannin content, and feel relatively dry because the bitterness needs sugar for balance.
And second, what are your personal preferences?
But it is certainly true that as the acid and/or the tannins are increased, the higher the SG you should have to keep the same sweetness perception.
For my part, I like my ciders to have a SG at drinking time between 1.005 for those with lower tannin and acid and up to 1.012 for those with higher tannin/acid.
Claude"

Somewhere I read this formula, perhaps it was in a post by one of the guys in the Cider Workshop, but it was a rule of thumb that showed for any SG what the TA needed to be close to in order to balance the sugar and the acid. Now I really have to find it

 

[Maylar]

Thanks for looking. It certainly makes sense. I've dialed into setting my finished ciders to about 1.012 which is acceptable to my brother who has a sweet tooth and yet not grossly sweet like commercial stuff. Now that I have a ph meter and TA test stuff I'm going to start keeping notes on the total taste profile and see how it all plays together.

 

[bembel]

Thanks for looking. It certainly makes sense. I've dialed into setting my finished ciders to about 1.012 which is acceptable to my brother who has a sweet tooth and yet not grossly sweet like commercial stuff. Now that I have a ph meter and TA test stuff I'm going to start keeping notes on the total taste profile and see how it all plays together.

Which PH meter did you end up going with? I use one as well, but the calibration requirements each use make it a less frequent tool. Still, the effect that PH has on stability during initial fermentation and how much sulfite to use or acid to blend depending on PH is key, would have never dialed into that without Claude's book!

 

[Maylar]

I bought one off Amazon, made by Etekcity. Haven't used it yet so I can't comment on it's accuracy. Just another tool (toy?) in the cider maker's arsenal. It's gotta be better than Litmus paper strips.

 

[JawZziff]

today I racked this batch. SG is 1005. it is tart and it comes through more with less sweetness. I'm trying to decide whether or not I think it's too much acid. I think I like it. I always liked those sour candies as a kid so this works for me.

still didn't get an acid kit and tbh I don't know if I'll get around to it for a few weeks. I'm just starting with cider so it's really just playing around at this point. I'm still serious and a little more focused on my ag beer process.

 

[JawZziff]

so this turned out pretty good. pretty dry finish and I will definitely go with a touch less acid next time but overall I'm happy with the finish. with a touch of apple juice it makes it quite enjoyable for one of my first cider batches.

View attachment 1470883576267.jpg