Chugger problems

[kincade]

Chill out. It's a question why people brand it as "plastic" when that is misleading. It's polysulfone.

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I applaud Mike's customer service and responsiveness when faced with a quality control issue and some functional issues with the product he is selling.

On the other hand, I am not one who is going to applaud him stealing a design of a manufacturer he was distributing for, outsourcing it to China, and then selling it as his own. But, that is my own prerogative and I am fine with others making their own moral judgements on the issue. I don't believe I have attacked anyone simply for having done business with Chugger.


And I believe my question to you about your issue with polysulfone is valid even if you don't want to answer. No reason to get all panty-bunched.

I'm perfectly calm, but when you use phrases like 'chill out' and 'panty bunched' I have to question what direction you intend this discussion to go. Again, I'm not sure why it's your business what pump I order? Polysulfone is a thermoplastic polymer, which is a plastic by almost any standard or interpetation. I'm not sure how anyone could justify calling by any other name:

Polysulfone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I won't use it. I'm sorry to disappoint you in my unwillingness to openly debate a topic that has been beaten into the ground here and elsewhere, but I don't see any point in it whatsoever. Your mind is obviously made up as is mine. I humbly suggest that we return to the topic at hand.

You and I do agree on your other points. I debated long before ordering the chugger, and if I cannot get a working pump I'll just return it and go back to the pre-pump days as I can't afford a stainless march.

 

[Randar]

Polysulfone is a thermoplastic polymer, which is a plastic by almost any standard or interpetation. I'm not sure how anyone could justify calling by any other name:

There are thousands of flavors of plastic. You obviously know it is polysulfone. Why not call it exactly that instead of trying to paint it in this broad brush of questionable content by referring to it plainly as "plastic"? Comes off as agenda-driven. That's all.

I'm perfectly calm, but when you use phrases like 'chill out' and 'panty bunched' I have to question what direction you intend this discussion to go. Again, I'm not sure why it's your business what pump I order?

Look, you came out and complained that people were criticizing chugger. Why? Seems an entirely appropriate topic for this board. If there is something being marketed at the brewing community and it has issues or fails to do it's job, that's something I sure would appreciate seeing discussed so I can be a more informed consumer.

If you don't want one, don't buy one, it's a fairly easy decision.

I'm not sure why my plastic concerns are any of your business?

These don't read as being argumentative to you? I can't infer tone on the webtoobz, so my apologies if that was not your intent. Again, the topic is a perfect topic for this board. Not sure why you think it's more appropriate to tell people to buy it or not and infer that criticizing a product that is showing performance issues in the field is something that shouldn't be discussed.

 

[kincade]

There are thousands of flavors of plastic. You obviously know it is polysulfone. Why not call it exactly that instead of trying to paint it in this broad brush of questionable content by referring to it plainly as "plastic"? Comes off as agenda-driven. That's all.



Look, you came out and complained that people were criticizing chugger. Why? Seems an entirely appropriate topic for this board. If there is something being marketed at the brewing community and it has issues or fails to do it's job, that's something I sure would appreciate seeing discussed so I can be a more informed consumer.



These don't read as being argumentative to you? I can't infer tone on the webtoobz, so my apologies if that was not your intent. Again, the topic is a perfect topic for this board. Not sure why you think it's more appropriate to tell people to buy it or not and infer that criticizing a product that is showing performance issues in the field is something that shouldn't be discussed.

Randar, read my comment again:

"Wow, I'm surprised on all the people who have come out of the woodwork to criticize Chugger, most of which have not spent their money on the pump! If you don't want one, don't buy one, it's a fairly easy decision. I simply can't afford $350 for a stainless March pump and I will not buy a plastic pump, so it was a no brainer for me."

I can't see how this possibly could be construed as an 'agenda-driven' comment crusading against plastic. I said 'I will not buy a plastic pump.' That is all. Feel free to take whatever offense you will from it, but it's a simple paragraph and I meant exactly what I said and no more. You are the one that is trying to steer this into a plastic vs other debate and I'm not willing to go down that road. I've made up my mind and I simply don't care what decision others come to. Having multiple choices in equipment is one of the great parts about this hobby.

Furthermore I am struggling to equate 'surprised' with 'complaining'. I am STILL surprised how many people have posted negative comments that haven't owned the pump. I have no stock in the company, don't know anyone there, and don't really care about anything but having a working pump. Clearly there is something polarizing about them but it surprises me nonetheless.

I don't have any desire to argue any further with you about a comment you have taken out of context and turned into a debate. I've posted what I meant and I don't think any further clarification is necessary.

 

[Yooper]

Let it go.

Stop arguing nonsense. You've said your piece. Both of you move on.

 

[Lost]

Just throwing this out there: march has a very reasonably priced brass headed high flow center inlet pump. I use it and am quite happy thus far.

 

[GreenBoneBrew]

I have a friend that uses a March pump with a bronze head and he says that it works great. I am curious to know if a bronze head is food safe and can be used for homebrewing? Perhaps Walter could comment on this topic?

 

[Lost]

It is bronze or brass either of which presents the usual concerns about lead. I use brass willingly in my rig but I also use some SS stuff as well. For me it depends on the price difference and the SS pump head was not worth it and chugger was back ordered.

I read lots of stories about the plastic heads breaking or having their threads stripped. I think the plastic is well and good but I personally have a tendancy to break things, particularly at inconvenient times, so I wanted to avoid the plastic if possible.

The brass option wasn't really anymore expensive so it was a no brainer for me.

And I'm not using "plastic" in a disparaging way I just can't spell polysulphone correctly

 

[emjay]

So... can I avoid problems by sticking a SS Chugger head on a March pump? Or is there possibly an issue with Chugger's pump heads?

 

[day_trippr]

So... can I avoid problems by sticking a SS Chugger head on a March pump? Or is there possibly an issue with Chugger's pump heads?

Whatever the problem is with the SS Chuggers, it's almost certainly in the pump head, not the motor...

Cheers!

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

I have a friend that uses a March pump with a bronze head and he says that it works great. I am curious to know if a bronze head is food safe and can be used for homebrewing? Perhaps Walter could comment on this topic?

I have commented on the brass quite a few times before. Our brass is cast by a big company in WI that makes allot of brass fixtures you would find in your homes. We do all of the final machining here in house. The industry standard can contain up to 6% lead in the brass. CA has not too long ago passed a resolution so brass can not contain any lead when used with potable water. Most of the 809 brass pump you would find in a home would be on the hot water side of things and you are not supposed to drink that anyway so they have any issues with our pumps. Just keep in mind that most hot water systems in the home wont get much over 135* in temp. What if any effect that will have on the lead/brass i don't know. There are MANY people that use the brass pumps for numerous food applications. In the end its up to the customer to take all the info they are given and make their own choices.

-Walter

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

So... can I avoid problems by sticking a SS Chugger head on a March pump? Or is there possibly an issue with Chugger's pump heads?

That depends on what the issues is that chugger is having with some of the pumps decoupling at 170*-180*
If its the impeller magnets not being strong enough, then putting the pump head on our motor assembly may or may not work. Depending on what torque values the chugger pump has on the magnets, ours may be stronger and solve the issue....but if the impeller magnet is significantly weaker then it wont help anything either way.
The other issue is if the impeller is binding on the shaft, then nothing will help you one way or the other as there's too much friction there to have the magnets try and overcome.

-Walter

 

[wildwest450]

You'd be paying for all that testing and quality control as well. Good bye cheap alternative. You can't expect half price and full functionality.

I'd like to know how a $5-10 difference is a cheap alternative? My March pump gladly pumps boiling wort from a dribble to full flow without any problems.


_

 

[emjay]

I'd like to know how a $5-10 difference is a cheap alternative? My March pump gladly pumps boiling wort from a dribble to full flow without any problems.

_

Have you priced the SS March pumps?

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Have you priced the SS March pumps?

Yeah i know....we unfortunatly pay almost as much for our raw castings from a US company then chugger sells the complete SS pump head for! Gotta love overseas cheap materials and labor costs!

-Walter

 

[wildwest450]

Have you priced the SS March pumps?

I'm talking the standard model. The impeller paddles on the chugger are not stainless, so the wort is still contacting "plastic". It may be shinier, but adds zero benefit.


_

 

[emjay]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to just go with SS March pumps, but paying that much for SS heads is just unaffordable for me, especially since it's not just one pump I need to upgrade.

 

[dperry]

Uh oh I'm scared now. I got one a few weeks ago when they got back in stock. I havent had a chance to brew or use it yet... I hope it will be ok

 

[broadbill]

As an aside, I think it is awesome that Walter at March Pump has jumped in with his input/advice/wisdom.

I'll be in the market for a pump after Xmas, and I'm pretty sure which one I'll be going with.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Uh oh I'm scared now. I got one a few weeks ago when they got back in stock. I havent had a chance to brew or use it yet... I hope it will be ok

Just test it out on a pot of near boiling water.

-Walter

 

[cobolstinks]

yeah i was drawn in my the bling on the chugger but think ill go with a march now. For that money i want something that works.

 

[NTabb]

I've been running the March 809 with the Polysulfone body for 2.5 years and never had an issue it. I agree a stainless head is nice, but I would not make that a decision maker when buying a pump. I also have a stainless chugger and its failed for the last 4 brew sessions which is why another march is on the way. I will say, chugger has been VERY responsive and helpful attempting to remedy the problem, but right now I tired of messing with a pump during brew sessions.

 

[milldoggy]

For what it is worth, I have two green chuggers. I replaced the impellers on both. They both work great. I pump boiling wort for 2 minutes through my chilliza to sanitize. The output of the chilliza is near boiling. I have not tried 5 minute of full boil, but why would I. The heat from the two minutes is enough to sanitize. My original pumps had issues at 180 and 200. Mike pretty much overnighted me a pump head and new impellers and things are working great. I understand all the concerns but I am one happy customer standing up for chugger. Service is great, they do everything they can to fix the problem. I also would like to add that head orientation and fittings used can affect the pump preformance. I went froma 90 on the inlet at 9 o'clock to a straight input at 6 o'clock and it really made a diff. So if you are having pump problems, post a pic of you fittings and pump connections.

Just my take.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Home Brew Talk

 

[KCBrewer]

My 2 pumps just arrived. I think I'll give them a shot, but hang on to my march for a while just in case.

They do have the initials scratched in the bottom, so I assume that means they were tested at boiling temps, and I plan to have both inputs in the 6:00 position.

The rest of my camlock fittings should be in tomorrow, so hopefully I'll get to test them out before the weekend and post some results. I plan to run a test batch with just water since this is a completely reconfigured system anyway.

Wish me luck.

 

[GreenBoneBrew]

I have commented on the brass quite a few times before. Our brass is cast by a big company in WI that makes allot of brass fixtures you would find in your homes. We do all of the final machining here in house. The industry standard can contain up to 6% lead in the brass. CA has not too long ago passed a resolution so brass can not contain any lead when used with potable water. Most of the 809 brass pump you would find in a home would be on the hot water side of things and you are not supposed to drink that anyway so they have any issues with our pumps. Just keep in mind that most hot water systems in the home wont get much over 135* in temp. What if any effect that will have on the lead/brass i don't know. There are MANY people that use the brass pumps for numerous food applications. In the end its up to the customer to take all the info they are given and make their own choices.

-Walter

Walter, thank you. I have not come across any info on the brass pumps and was just wondering. I'll have to tell my friend about the possible issues with using brass.

 

[GreenBoneBrew]

I'm talking the standard model. The impeller paddles on the chugger are not stainless, so the wort is still contacting "plastic". It may be shinier, but adds zero benefit.
_

I have come to the same conclusion and with be getting a March plastic pump also. I think of all the plastic hose, fittings, and buckets that I have, does one on more or less piece of SS equipment really matter? Probably not. I'll go all stainless when I win the lottery, will also consist of building a brewery at that point thou.

Question: Why is the impeller not SS in the SS heads for both March and Chugger? Would the impeller be to heavy to spin and not get the GPM needed?

 

[Toecutter]

thought i would post an update since i started the thread,

I have brewed 2 times since Mike sent me the new Black pump.

both brew sessions, the new pump worked flawless.

my process works like this, 10 gallon batches, heat about 8 gallons of water in keggle to 175 dg. pump to mash tun. heat 8 gallons water to 180 dg, pump to sparge water holding pot. gravity feed sparge for 30 minutes, while slowly pumping wort to keggle. after boil complete, pump hot wort through plate chiller, and recirculate to keggle to drop tempeture. at 110-120 dg, final pump through chiller to fermenter vessel.

I also took apart and cleaned the pump head prior to this last brew. i like the new design that iliminates that pesky rubber o-ring

you can definitely see this company is working to improve their product

I may buy a second Chugger so i dont have to constantly swap around hoses.

great product for the price, and great customer service

 

[DrewBrewTheGreat]

Brewed an IPA today. Ran Chugger (pump delivered on 12/09/11) at flame out to recirculate and help with cooling. No problems whatsoever at around 210-212F...

 

[KCBrewer]

Good to hear. I've only done cold water tests so far. Hopefully I'll be brewing tomorrow. I'm still up in the air on whether I'm going to keep them or pick up a second march.

I'm not happy at how intollerant they are to any amount of air. I teed my sight glass off the output of my BK and it allowed it to suck air in for a very brief amount of time, less than 5 seconds. These things howl the second any air gets in them.

I'll either move the sightglass or put a check valve on it to prevent that, but it's not very comforting to know that if you happen to have one run dry for even a second they sound like they're going to explode. My march has never made a peep if ran dry by accident.

I may try the march head on the chugger also. A different head is cheaper than another pump.

 

[DrewBrewTheGreat]

I'm not happy at how intollerant they are to any amount of air. I teed my sight glass off the output of my BK and it allowed it to suck air in for a very brief amount of time, less than 5 seconds. These things howl the second any air gets in them.

The chugger does seem more persnickety than the March when it comes to grabbing air. And it does make the dying cat noise when doing so, unlike the March. My March is a plastic head and the Chugger is stainless--I wonder if the head material has something to do with the noise?

I run the pump with the outlet facing straight up--which I think makes the most sense for removing air as quickly as possible (air travels up). If not running that way--maybe try that.

The Chugger also has more suction than than the March--cover your finger on the inlet and you can feel the difference-- so maybe that has something to do with it too. The inlet on the head of the Chugger is larger for sure than the March.

All and all--I have to try to make the Chugger fail--in order to get it to fail. (Fail--> just means loud noise causing me to turn the pump off and than having to turn back on to restart. )

When brewing the way I normally do--> I have zero problems--> i.e. moving sparge water (160-190F typically--I don't get too exacting on sparge temperature), moving wort from mash to kettle (160-170F), and whirlpooling immediately after flameout (212/211F all the way down to ferment temp).

I have to run the Chugger at a rolling boil of wort, or introducing air to the inlet (yes even briefly = failure) to get failure.

Also, the Chugger seems to like more viscous fluid (i.e. wort). With the tests I ran, (15 gallons of) water causes failure at a lower temperature. I got partial failure at (brief noise that stopped on it own quickly) 202F with water. However, with wort--> I can run the pump up until rolling boil with no problems.

Changing the inlet from my double elbow (more restricted flow) to a (much less restricted flow) straight inlet--> made no difference in the tests I ran.

I'll be interested in seeing the issues resolved because I think people with plate chillers and the like, as stated by others, have a need for pump to move water at at or near boiling temperature.

That said, again, for me, the present issues are kind of a moot point because the pump does not fail at all when I brew the way I normally (and always have) brewed.

 

[KCBrewer]

My march and chuggers are all the poly heads. The march is center input.

I have the output pointed up on both pumps, which does make alleviating air intake quick and easy like you said. Just a quick on/off.

I fashioned a cap for the sight glass to use while transferring to the fermenter. That's the only time it gets low enough to suck air through it. At 5+ gallons, it doesn't suck hard enough to pull air in.

I'm putting them to the test as I type. Mashing right now, but wasn't happy that pump 1 squeeled for a second with 170° strike water. It corrected itself before I could switch it off, so hopefully it was just an air bubble and not decoupling.

I'll have my final results in a few hours.