Chlorophenol SMaSH Experiment

[FreddyMar3]

I am in the process of working on a presentation to my brewing club about chlorine/chloramines and the importance of removing these disinfectants from brewing water in order to prevent the formation of chlorophenols. I thought it would be a great idea to brew two mini 1 or 2 gal test batches where the only control was adding campden to the water. I figured this would also be a great opportunity to do my first smash and mini BIAB. I'm just not sure what grain/hops to use to most clearly showcase the chlorophenols. I'm thinking of just doing 2-row and cascade, so that there isn't much flavor to cover up the chlorophenols.

Make sense?

 

[FreddyMar3]

Also, if anyone is interested in seeing the presentation I can post when I am done.

 

[PDX_T]

this is a cool idea. I'd do something with low hop aroma so that it doesn't cover up the effects you're testing. may not be the best beer, but a good test should be free of interference.

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

definitely second the sentiment to keep the hopping light. (also nice neutral yeast) You don't want anything detracting from that lovely medicinal flavor.

 

[FreddyMar3]

Good point, minor detail forgetting to mention the yeast. I'm thinking S-05.

 

[monkeybox]

I'll be interested to hear how this turns out, and whether you actually detect anything. I use chlorinated water all the time.

Something like a kolsch might be a good bet. Very little bitterness or hop.

 

[FreddyMar3]

Just picked up the ingredients. Very basic. 6 lbs 2 row, 1 oz cascade (prob will only use 2/3 o that), Safale-05. Going to split everything down the middle and make two 1.5ish gallon batches, keeping the campden addition as my control. Then I'm going to do a blind taste test with my club.

I will definitely post the results when I'm finished. Shouldn't take but a few weeks for a beer this small to be ready. I will also try to figure out a way to post my presentation and homemade campden calculator.

 

[ph0ngwh0ng]

subbed!

 

[GotPushrods]

Will you be testing the chlorine level prior to brewing? I would be tempted to get it to maybe 2-3 ppm. Totally within most municipal water supply levels, and should guarantee results. (It would for me anyway, I'm quite sensitive to it) A pool test kit would do the trick.

 

[FreddyMar3]

I work for the water company that serves our area (Aqua America) so I was able to get the most recent analysis from the plant that serves our system. Granted most of the chlorine will dissipate before it reaches the kettles but the chloramines should still be in good order. As of the report, the plant is running at about 2.06ppm on chloramines. Typically we see testing come in around 1.0-1.5 when it reaches the consumer, as some of it degrades in the system. So for my purposes I am going to assume a level of 1.0-1.5 but treat it as if it is 3.0 (per the campden directions).

 

[KiterNick]

Also interested in the results, the only difference will be the campden tablets? I run our water through a active carbon filter, but have been thinking about trying RO water with mineral additions...

 

[FreddyMar3]

Yep campden will be the only difference. Every other variable will be consistent between the two batches.

From what I've read, AC filters SHOULD remove all chlorine and chloramines. In an RO system, the AC filter serves the purpose of stripping that stuff out in order to preserve the RO membrane. That said, it is impossible to know without testing. Taste and odor thresholds for Cl and Chloramines are higher than for chlorophenols so even if your brew water tastes and smells fine, it could still create chlorophenols and thus off flavors. Again, this is all coming from the research I've been doing to prep for this presentation.

Thank god for campden!

 

[ballsy]

I'm very interested in this too...my municipal water has 3.0 ppm chloramines and I have just bought campden in effort to figure out if the water is what has been ruining my beers...taste great initially then degrades through the weeks...

 

[Ramitt]

Great idea, I wisb someone had taught me sooner about water. Homebrew shops should be warning customers. Would have saved my first brews.

 

[FreddyMar3]

I'm very interested in this too...my municipal water has 3.0 ppm chloramines and I have just bought campden in effort to figure out if the water is what has been ruining my beers...taste great initially then degrades through the weeks...

Wow! 3.0 ppm is really high. 4.0 is considered the upper threshold by the EPA. Assuming you've confirmed that is the level which is coming out of your faucet, you should probably consider upping your campden slightly above the recommended dose. Campden is typically dosed for 3.0 ppm but it's always safe to overshoot slightly.

 

[FreddyMar3]

So here is the plan for tomorrow, er technically today... Each brew will be the following:

Yeast: S-05
Hops: 0.35oz Cascade @60 min
Grain: 3lbs US 2-row
Batch size: 1.5gal
Est OG: 1.048
Est IBU: 29
Est ABV: 4.9%

Single Infusion Mash (BIAB): 90 min (want to make sure those chlorophenols are created!)
Boil time: 90 min

Should be pretty simple.

 

[FreddyMar3]

In the thick of it. For those process freaks out there, you'll be happy to know that I even used campden treated water to rinse/wash any of the equipment used on the campden brew. All in the name of science!!

 

[ballsy]

Wow! 3.0 ppm is really high. 4.0 is considered the upper threshold by the EPA. Assuming you've confirmed that is the level which is coming out of your faucet, you should probably consider upping your campden slightly above the recommended dose. Campden is typically dosed for 3.0 ppm but it's always safe to overshoot slightly.

That was water report for town so hoping it is less than that out of my faucet!! I now have my 100 campden tablets ready to roll for the forseeable future of brewing!

 

[FreddyMar3]

Bottling tonight. Excited for the first taste of the results.

 

[Wynne-R]

It seems to me that the chlorine is extremely reactive, but it’s so unstable that it readily gases out. I would expect it to be pretty well gone by the time you hit strike temperature.

Chloramine, on the other hand is much harder to get rid of, but is much less reactive. Lots of people in my brewclub don’t do anything to the tapwater and seem to get away with it.

I use a .6 micron carbon block filter and it knocks the chloramine down to a level that it doesn’t show on a test paper that goes down to .1 ppm total chlorine. Right out of the tap it shows 3 ppm. Through the filter it’s the same color as RO and distilled. I still use Campden, but on the order of .1g.

I don’t see much band-aid flavor in competitions but it does happen. I wonder if it’s bleach.

It seems odd that the chloramine only reacts some of the time, but maybe that’s the case.

 

[FreddyMar3]

It seems odd that the chloramine only reacts some of the time, but maybe that’s the case.

One thing I've been told frequently by the lab guys here is that the chloramine levels vary pretty widely, not only throughout the system but even at a single residence. Maybe that is the cause of the variability. Although I suppose the grain bill/ mash time /temp/ and sparging techniques could all play a part in that as well.

 

[tagz]

Subscribed.

 

[apalke]

I'm very interested in how this turns out. My municipal water has chloramines and for the longest time I never treated it with campden tablets. At the same time, I never noticed any off flavors that seemed to be attributable to chlorophenols. However, I recently started using the campden tablets anyway because I'm a bit paranoid. However, I don't notice any difference.

This leaves me wondering if, at least for some municipal water, the whole chlorophenol scare is pointless and unnecessary.

It'd be good to see your results as you have a nice controlled experiment. Maybe I'm just not sensitive to these off flavors. But maybe some of your brew club members are sensitive and they could detect a difference.

Let us know how it turns out.

 

[mabrungard]

The effect of chlorine compounds can also be assessed without brewing. All it takes is a minor film of chlorinated water in a serving glass to produce notable chlorophenols in beer. So the problems with chlorinated compounds can be encountered at any point in the brewing or serving process.

I look forward to your results.

 

[dennis0]

One thing I've been told frequently by the lab guys here is that the chloramine levels vary pretty widely, not only throughout the system but even at a single residence. Maybe that is the cause of the variability. Although I suppose the grain bill/ mash time /temp/ and sparging techniques could all play a part in that as well.

If I understand it correctly, this is caused by the fact that as the water leaves the plant, it will have the highest concentration of chlorine/chloramine, but as it travels through the pipe system, more of the chlorine and chloramine is neutralized by contaminants in the pipes. So I suspect the farther away your water supply is from the water plant, the less chlorine/chloramine you'll get in your water (although you might have higher concentrations of other minerals).

 

[FreddyMar3]

If I understand it correctly, this is caused by the fact that as the water leaves the plant, it will have the highest concentration of chlorine/chloramine, but as it travels through the pipe system, more of the chlorine and chloramine is neutralized by contaminants in the pipes. So I suspect the farther away your water supply is from the water plant, the less chlorine/chloramine you'll get in your water (although you might have higher concentrations of other minerals).

That is correct. Not sure about the mineral content increasing but definitely the concentration of bacteria.

I bottled the experiment this weekend. Must say that I could not taste and difference at bottling. Hopefully it will come through more in the finished product. I'll also note that this is an awful recipe for beer. Never make a smash modeled after this beer.

 

[FreddyMar3]

An update this if anyone is still tracking... I had two people blind taste test so far and both could tell the difference. I seem to notice it as well but I haven't had anyone blind test me yet. My club will be the ultimate test. Will have the results December 4th.

 

[GotPushrods]

An update this if anyone is still tracking... I had two people blind taste test so far and both could tell the difference. I seem to notice it as well but I haven't had anyone blind test me yet. My club will be the ultimate test. Will have the results December 4th.

Will this be a blind triangle test? I highly recommend it over just 2 samples.

Based on personal experience I have a feeling I know how the results will turn out, but interested for your numbers nonetheless.

 

[TheSmithsEra]

sub

 

[Wynne-R]

Definitely do a triangle test. I did an experiment with olive oil, and the homebrew club tasting was a disaster. We didn’t tell anyone what the difference was. The beer was served ice cold (out of my control). The comments were all over the map. 30% preferred one, 30% preferred the other 30% had no preference. The remaining 10% thought they were the same.

The beers were noticeably different, but all I proved was people like free beer. It cost me 3 ½ cases of beer (big club).