Chlorine or chloramine

[Ridenour64]

Hey guys,

I am in the works of ordering an RO system and I need to find out if my water contains chlorine or chloramine. Are you able to tell me the answer to that with this photo of which I believe is the water quality report for my tap. I know it says chlorine on one of the columns, but this is Chinese to me and I don’t want to assume. Thanks!

 

[day_trippr]

Right, the last entry in Table 1 lists "Chlorine" as being added to both sources of water in the covered district "to control microbes".
As well, there are table entries detailing by-products of chlorination in both water regions.

The carbon block filters included in typical RO systems will be sacrificed over time to the chlorine...

Cheers!

 

[dmtaylor]

It doesn't specify which form the chlorine is in. Might be hypochlorite (bleach) or chloramine. Unfortunately the two are used in about the same amounts so there are no clues provided as to which of the two forms your municipal water has used. If you NEED to know, call them up and ask. You can use Campden to remove either type, it is effective against both. Use 1 tablet per 10 gallons (or 1/2 tablet in 5).

 

[Ridenour64]

So I’m looking at the premium system from buckeye hydro. Russ told me that if they use chloramine, I need to add the chloragaurd stage. If chlorine, I don’t.

I have always used Campden tablets to remove chlorine up to this point, and don’t mind Continuing to do that, but I’m wondering if it is chloramine, and I don’t remove it, will it damage the membrane? Personally I would prefer to skip the chloraguard stage if it won’t be damaging to the system because I always have campden Stocked.

 

[dmtaylor]

My understanding is that yes, chlorine (in either form) can damage the RO membrane. I still just recommend you call your water company and find out which form they use. It's either hypochlorite or chloramine. Classic form is hypochlorite. The chloramine is very modern. If they aren't sure, it's probably hypochlorite.

 

[Ridenour64]

How does hypochlorite play into this? Still need chloraguard stage? I will try calling again. I called before and the lady was not very helpful. She just referred me back to the report and said that’s what we use lol.

I really don’t know anything about this stuff. Still reading/ watching videos and learning though. With that said, any tips or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

my current plan is to get this connected in my basement. Use a 10 gallon round igloo cooler as a storage tank. Drill a hole in the lid for the water input and float valve and install a ball lock on the bottom. That way I have 10 gallons ready at any time and won’t have to wait very long For making my 10 gallon batches. I also may use it for cleaning because whenever I use oxyclean with my water I get the residue which is annoying when im trying to clean.

 

[z-bob]

I didn't think any of them actually add chloramine, they add chlorine and then stabilize it (convert to chloramine) by adding ammonia. Not sure that it makes a difference I guess I thought you might could tell which they use by looking at nitrogen compounds, but the only nitrogen they list is nitrates.

Nevermind.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Problem is we don't know if they are reporting TOTAL CHLORINE or FREE CHLORINE. I'd guess it is free chlorine (meaning just plain 'ole chlorine - not chloramine), but if I were you I'd invest the 5 minutes in a phone call to their water quality lab. If the person you talk to first doesn't know, or doesn't understand your question... you're not talking to the right person.

 

[Ridenour64]

Ok, got through to a lab tech. They use Sodium Hydrochlorite which she says is a form of chlorine.

 

[dmtaylor]

Ok, got through to a lab tech. They use Sodium Hydrochlorite which she says is a form of chlorine.

Yep, that's standard bleach, NOT chloramine.

 

[Ridenour64]

Thanks for the help everyone. The last thing I need to figure out to get this ordered is the storage tank. Can you guys offer me your opinions on this?

I plan to set this up on the unfinished side of my basement. I will use this system for brewing and coffee only. I want a tank that I can pour from and then have the system automatically replenish itself. As noted above, the current plan is to use a 10 gallon igloo cooler. Drill a hole in the top for the water line and float valve, then a ball valve at the bottom for dispensing. The more I’m thinking about it, by time I spend money outfitting this cooler, there may be a better way? I know the 4 gallon tanks aren’t very expensive so maybe I should just grab one of those? Will be a bit more of a hassle getting water on brew day, but that shouldn’t be a huge deal.

Once the igloo cooler was setup, I would never really mess with it. Maybe 1x per year to clean. Will this be a sanitary issue as opposed to a tank designed for RO.

 

[z-bob]

Ok, got through to a lab tech. They use Sodium Hydrochlorite which she says is a form of chlorine.

Hypochlorite, not hydro. As long as they are not also adding ammonia you should be fine treating it the same as if they used chlorine gas.

 

[marc1]

How does hypochlorite play into this? Still need chloraguard stage? I will try calling again. I called before and the lady was not very helpful. She just referred me back to the report and said that’s what we use lol.

I really don’t know anything about this stuff. Still reading/ watching videos and learning though. With that said, any tips or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

my current plan is to get this connected in my basement. Use a 10 gallon round igloo cooler as a storage tank. Drill a hole in the lid for the water input and float valve and install a ball lock on the bottom. That way I have 10 gallons ready at any time and won’t have to wait very long For making my 10 gallon batches. I also may use it for cleaning because whenever I use oxyclean with my water I get the residue which is annoying when im trying to clean.

You only use 10 gallons of water to make 10 gallons of beer?

 

[Ridenour64]

You only use 10 gallons of water to make 10 gallons of beer?

No but I would have a 10 gallon reserve and the extra few gallons should be ready in less than 1 hour.

 

[marc1]

No but I would have a 10 gallon reserve and the extra few gallons should be ready in less than 1 hour.

That's going to depend a lot on your water pressure, temperature, and ro membrane.

The gpd rating is for ideal conditions. I've got the Buckeye 100 Gpd setup and get maybe 2.5 gallons per hour.

The auto shutoff is nice, though, you can pull water earlier and not worry about overflowing. Makes getting water in advance easier.

I don't have one. So I run the RO into a carboy in my giant sink, and set a timer. If I'm off by a bit the spillage goes down the drain instead of all over the floor. I get all my water days in advance so I don't have to think about it on brew day.

 

[mabrungard]

Chloramination is NOT very modern. It's been in use for almost a century, but it has seen increased usage in the past few decades.

Water can still be chloraminated if the raw water contains ammonia, urea, or other active nitrogen compounds. Those compounds react with the hypochlorite or chlorine gas that the utility adds for disinfection. That water report doesn't provide the information on Total or Free chlorine, so its not possible to rule out the presence of chloramines in the tap water.

The enhanced carbon filter does provide improved chloramine treatment, but it may not be necessary if the total flow rate through the filter is low enough. If the OP is planning on purchasing a high capacity RO system (>75 gpd), then it would be wise to use the enhanced filter.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

If you haven't yet, check out our calculator to see how fast your RO membrane will actually produce water. The speed of production is dramatically affected by your water temperature and your water pressure.

The factory spec test conditions are 77F, and 50 psi for Filmtec brand membranes. If your pressure is lower, and or your water is colder, your production will be slower.

Nearly every other brand of membrane is spec'ed at 77F and 60 psi.

https://www.buckeyehydro.com/calculator/
The calculator estimates production in gpd: gallons per day.
Divide gpd by 24 to get gph: gallons per hour.
Divide gpd by 1440 to get gpm: gallons per minute.

Russ

 

[mabrungard]

The factory spec test conditions are 77F, and 50 psi for Filmtec brand membranes. If your pressure is lower, and or your water is colder, your production will be slower.

Nearly every other brand of membrane is spec'ed at 77F and 60 psi.

Hmm?? While the performance at 50 psi will be a conservative estimate, I'm wondering why they use that reduced pressure? The typical target for minimum water system pressure is 60 psi.

 

[jtgoral]

Hey guys,

I am in the works of ordering an RO system and I need to find out if my water contains chlorine or chloramine. Are you able to tell me the answer to that with this photo of which I believe is the water quality report for my tap. I know it says chlorine on one of the columns, but this is Chinese to me and I don’t want to assume. Thanks!

I get Lake Michigan water and use ~8.25 gallon of it to make 5.5 gallon BIAB batch. The taste of my beers improved since I started to add 1 campden tablet per batch before adding grains. Maybe you could try this before spending to much money

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Hmm?? While the performance at 50 psi will be a conservative estimate, I'm wondering why they use that reduced pressure? The typical target for minimum water system pressure is 60 psi.

This has been a long-standing competitive advantage (differentiator) for Filmtec residential membranes. Most residences have 50 psi... fewer have 60 psi.

 

[Ridenour64]

I get Lake Michigan water and use ~8.25 gallon of it to make 5.5 gallon BIAB batch. The taste of my beers improved since I started to add 1 campden tablet per batch before adding grains. Maybe you could try this before spending to much money

I have been adding campben to my water pre mash. I have 2 reasons for wanting RO. 1 is to have a blank canvas for building up water. 2 is I have just started to try and CIP my kettle (currently without a ball) and last time I did that with oxyclean it was a big fail because everything was caked in white residue. I had to rinse several more times and ultimately had to resort to vinegar. My goal would be to do the cleaning with RO and then rinse with my tap.

 

[mabrungard]

Most residences have 50 psi... fewer have 60 psi.

My 35 years in the consulting engineering industry, working with water utilities around the country, indicate that you're overstating. Most water utilities deliver 60 psi or greater.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Don't forget locations on residential wells controlled by 30/50 or 40/60 pressure switches.

Further, over the last ~25 years we've provided many many customers with booster pumps - typically in situations where feedwater is below 50 psi. Booster Pump Kits - Buckeye Hydro

I believe Filmtec would tell you that regardless of the pressure delivered by a utility, their membranes will outperform others. For example, a Filmtec 75 gpd membrane, given 77F and 60 psi, will produce ~93 gpd. Nearly all the competing membranes will produce 75 gpd given those conditions. So the Filmtec advantage is most pronounced between ~45 and 60 psi, but the advantage persists regardless of the feedwater pressure.