Chlorine - Is 'any' too much?

[Yooper]

I have a few questions..

1) How much Campden is correct in a 5 Gal batch (Cant seem to find that anywhere)

2) Will too much Campden cause problems

3) Could a slow kick off to fermentation be a byproduct of Camden in a Lager..?

I just had a lager take forever to start and its still slow.. the ONLY thing I did different this time is add 5 tabs of Campden to my water (in the end I think I fished out 2 or so because it seemed like too much to me).

For 5 gallons of water, 1/4 campden tablet would be correct. The dosage is usually 1 tablet per 20 gallons of water.

Too much campden will stunt the yeast, but not kill it unless its a huge dose. 5 tabs is a lot, and winemakers use that much in a 5 gallon batch they wait 24 hours before adding yeast.

 

[CDGoin]

Then there you go.. that explains why my Lager took for frigging ever to start.

Wonder if that's not a problem with a few people that have slow starting beers. Maybe Campden is more harmful to Lager yeasts than Ale ones..?

I know its supposed to outright kill wild yeast (at least according to the directions)

 

[orangehero]

Basically, the chlorine and fermentation together make chlorophenols.

I don't think this is correct, but perhaps someone can expound on it further. I haven't been able to find any reference to chlorophenols being a fermentation product.

As I understand it chlorine + organic compounds (phenols) = chlorophenols. Which means that this likely happens during the mash.

 

[Yooper]

I don't think this is correct, but perhaps someone can expound on it further. I haven't been able to find any reference to chlorophenols being a fermentation product.

As I understand it chlorine + organic compounds (phenols) = chlorophenols. Which means that this likely happens during the mash.

Then how do you explain chlorophenols in an extract beer? I've tasted chlorophenols in beers made out of 100% extract, in which there is no mash.

My understanding is that it's created by the yeast combined with phenols during fermentation, but I don't have a reference for that.

 

[gbx]

Then how do you explain chlorophenols in an extract beer? I've tasted chlorophenols in beers made out of 100% extract, in which there is no mash.

My understanding is that it's created by the yeast combined with phenols during fermentation, but I don't have a reference for that.

I agree with Yooper...the water here is chlorinated and I've only ever tasted chlorophenols (or what everyone believes is cholophenols) in partial boil batches that were topped up with tap water.

 

[orangehero]

Those extract beers did not use chlorinated water either? Some yeast do make phenolic compounds, but if there's no chlorine then they couldn't be chlorophenols. I also remember reading that similar flavors can also come from contamination.

A.J. wrote a whole paper on removing chlorine from water, maybe he can explain.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

I filter highly chlorinated tap water and add some campden. I've used double the recommended amount of campden with no apparent penalty.

I use chlorinated tap water and oxyclean or PBW for clean up. I could easily use filtered water for clean up, but haven't needed to.

The only band aid beers I've drank have been commercial beers.

 

[Yooper]

Those extract beers did not use chlorinated water either? Some yeast do make phenolic compounds, but if there's no chlorine then they couldn't be chlorophenols. I also remember reading that similar flavors can also come from contamination.

A.J. wrote a whole paper on removing chlorine from water, maybe he can explain.

Right- the phenols come from the yeast. Then, it combines with chlorine to become "chlorophenols".

You need the phenols first to make chlorophenols. There aren't phenolics in the mash, so you don't make chlorophenols in the mash. That's why it's a fermentation issue, and not a mash issue.

This is highly simplified of course, but that's the gist of my understanding of the formation of chlorophenols.

 

[orangehero]

There are phenols in the mash/wort (for example tannin). It could also be a combination of mechanisms through which they are formed.

 

[BowWowz]

I had been struggling with some persistent off-flavors in my beers for some time, especially in my lighter beers. I never could quite call it medicinal or band aid like, but plasticky. In some of the beers it was only noticeable in the burp. Anyway, chlorophenols sounded like the culprit. I had been filtering my city water through an activated carbon filter thinking that would do the trick. Further research said that while activated carbon can work, it can take an absurdly long contact time especially with chloramine which is quite stable ( the whole reason it's used).

I started adding campden at the typical 1/ 20gal rate and so far (6 beers) no trace of the off flavor.

My wife is an environmental scientist at the local water district - She borrowed the chlorine meter from work and we ran a few tests a couple weeks ago:

Tap water total cl2: 1.7 ppm
Post carbon filter at full flow: 1.44 ppm
Post carbon filter at 0.6 gpm: 1.46 ppm
Post carbon filter at 0.16 gpm: 1.55 ppm

So the carbon filter did remove some cl2 but no mater how slow we ran it we couldn't come close to removing it all.

One final test with campden at 1tab / 20 gal after 1 minute of contact: 0.00 ppm

I 100% recommend that anyone using tap water use campden... They are simple, cheap and will improve your beer immediately. No brainier.

 

[Wynne-R]

From the late great George Fix:

“Extraction of phenolic compounds occurs to some extent during mashing, but it is in the sparging that the issue becomes critical (Prechtel, 1964; Scneider, 1997).

He then goes on to mention sparge volume, temperature and pH as factors that should be controlled to limit phenol extraction.

So Yooper was mostly correct. Then again, if ppb can ruin your batch, it would be fun to know the chemistry.

BowWowz, that’s interesting. What kind of filter do you use? Is it granular or solid?

In my experience, a carbon filter is effective at removing chloramine. I have a one micron 10" filter with a flow of almost 1 gallon/minute. The filtered water does not indicate on a total chlorine test strip, which should indicate at ½ ppm.

From what I’ve read from Martin and AJ, I should still have some chloramine. Yet I don’t see any effect using Campden.

 

[mabrungard]

The comment from Fix is in regard to the polyphenols that exist in the husks of the grain. Tannin is a polyphenol. However, this is still related to the issue at hand...the creation of chlorophenols.

The compounds that react with chlorine to create chlorophenol are not only in the grain husk, but they are drawn out into the wort too. With normal mashing, that extraction of tannins and other polyphenols is not objectionable or notable. But it is more than enough to serve as the feedstock to combine with the chlorine to form those chlorophenols that we can taste in the ppb range. So even an all extract wort will react with chlorine infused water to create those unpleasant chlorophenols in beer.

This is not a fermentation phenomena. It is a 'wort creation' phenomena that can occur whether you are mashing or adding extract to water.

 

[Yooper]

This is not a fermentation phenomena. It is a 'wort creation' phenomena that can occur whether you are mashing or adding extract to water.

Thanks for the correction, Martin!

I was just reading something the other day about yeast created phenols and fermentation and chlorine (from Palmer), and my response was based on that.

 

[gbx]

The comment from Fix is in regard to the polyphenols that exist in the husks of the grain. Tannin is a polyphenol. However, this is still related to the issue at hand...the creation of chlorophenols.

The compounds that react with chlorine to create chlorophenol are not only in the grain husk, but they are drawn out into the wort too. With normal mashing, that extraction of tannins and other polyphenols is not objectionable or notable. But it is more than enough to serve as the feedstock to combine with the chlorine to form those chlorophenols that we can taste in the ppb range. So even an all extract wort will react with chlorine infused water to create those unpleasant chlorophenols in beer.

This is not a fermentation phenomena. It is a 'wort creation' phenomena that can occur whether you are mashing or adding extract to water.

So chlorine in the mash is bad and will lead to chlorophenols in the beer?

 

[ajdelange]

It can and sometimes it does but other times it doesn't and let's limit the discussion to chloramine as chlorine isn't stable enough to make it through to the mash tun. As a general rule if you can't smell chlorine in the water you intend to brew with as it is being poured back and forth between two tumblers then you have eliminated enough of it that clorphenol production is unlikely. But there are always exceptions to rules. To be sure use a test kit (capable of detecting combined chlorine) or use enough metabite that the treated water smells of sulfur dioxide.

 

[E_Marquez]

Be sure to remove that residual prior to brewing or you are very likely to have chlorophenol in your beer.

Ugg, more learning... I thought I was done with school like 40 years ago.....

 

[E_Marquez]

So searching for chlorine and chloramine removal brought me to this thread.....

mabrungard;
From the site you linked to I found among much other technical water information I will delve into later..

"4.1.3 Metabisulfite (Campden Tablet) addition is effective for chlorine and chloramine removal. The tablets are either potassium metabisulfite or sodium metabisulfite. Both are effective in disinfectant removal. When sodium content in the brewing water is a concern, potassium metabisulfite may be preferred. Moderate potassium content in brewing water generally has less effect on brewing performance or taste. Adding these compounds at a rate of about 9 milligrams per liter (~35 milligrams per gallon or ~1 tablet per 20 gallons) or (~1 tablet per 75 liters) will dechlorinate typical municipal water and leave residual concentrations of about 3 ppm potassium or 2 ppm sodium (depending on the chemical used) and 8 ppm sulfate and 3 ppm chloride. These ion contributions are relatively insignificant and can be ignored in practice. "

This appears to be the optimal method; quickest, most reliable way to remove chlorine and chloramine from my tap water (the only issue I want to deal with at this point)

Yes? or am I missing something?

Next: did I pull the right numbers.. potassium metabisulfite or sodium metabisulfite dosage rate is 35 milligrams per gallon?

Thanks

 

[ajdelange]

The simple answer is that one campden tablet is sufficient to remove the chloramine from 20 gal of water in most cases.

There is a sticky at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/campden-tablets-sulfites-brewing-water-361073/ which should answer most of your questions about the use of campden tablets/bisulfite. For details of the reactions and lots more info on chlorine/chloramine in brewing you can go to http://wetnewf.org/pdfs/Brewing_articles/BT_Chlorine.pdf. This is the article that was referred to in an earlier post in this thread.

As to the source of phenols: they are many. We are mainly concerned here with the ones extracted from the grains. All (or perhaps I should say nearly all just to be safe) plants produce some phenol compounds for a variety of reasons. Even if you are careful in sparging you will extract some phenolic compounds from the grain (example: ferulic acid - the phenolic that we rely on the yeast to turn into clove flavor in wheat beers). I'm sure the chemistry of chlorphenolics is as diverse as the chemistry of phenols and I'm sure some are more potent in flavor than others but one thing I can say is that if there is no chlorine there will be no chlorphenolics of any kind.

 

[uatuba]

VitaminC is natural. It works in smaller quantities as well.

 

[E_Marquez]

VitaminC is natural. It works in smaller quantities as well.

True
But what of the other issues brought about when using that acid?

You may know and all but it was eye opening to read that article linked on the subject of brew water

 

[uatuba]

True
But what of the other issues brought about when using that acid?

You may know and all but it was eye opening to read that article linked on the subject of brew water

The minuscule amount required to neutralize chloramine does not affect the pH at all.

 

[E_Marquez]

The minuscule amount required to neutralize chloramine does not affect the pH at all.

Well from what I have read so far I'd say others have a different opinion on that as well as a host of other reasons making vitamin C workable but not the better solution

To each his own do what works for you..

Heck I've not been addressing this at all in my beers so far and all that have tried them liked what has been brewed

 

[uatuba]

I have to add 4.12 mg/gal to my water in order to eliminate chloramine, based on the levels obtained from my water authority. There is a very simple test to see if this affects pH: check the pH before adding that amount, then check the pH afterward. I have done this very simple test, and there was no change in pH.

What other issues are there with using Vitamin C? I am unaware of any other concerns, other than depressing pH.

 

[DaleHair]

I have to add 4.12 mg/gal to my water in order to eliminate chloramine, based on the levels obtained from my water authority. There is a very simple test to see if this affects pH: check the pH before adding that amount, then check the pH afterward. I have done this very simple test, and there was no change in pH.

What other issues are there with using Vitamin C? I am unaware of any other concerns, other than depressing pH.

Have you read https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/campden-tablets-sulfites-brewing-water-361073/

 

[ajdelange]

I have to add 4.12 mg/gal to my water in order to eliminate chloramine, based on the levels obtained from my water authority. There is a very simple test to see if this affects pH: check the pH before adding that amount, then check the pH afterward. I have done this very simple test, and there was no change in pH.

What other issues are there with using Vitamin C? I am unaware of any other concerns, other than depressing pH.

Follow the link and see.

WRT acidification: you are right. Ascorbic acid that is oxidized by chloramine does not lower pH. It is any excess that you need to worry about. And you are also right that you can titrate ascorbic acid until you see the pH start to change and stop there and you will not add excess. This is in contrast to the campden tablet situation in which one simply throws one tablet into 20 gal of water without any measurement or calculation and can be confident that he will have dealt with chloramine but note that the chloramine reaction also releases hydrogen ions but this time it is not the excess but rather the bisulfite that reacts. If your water contains 3 mg/L chloramine (really chlorine as chloramine) you will be dealing with 4.5 ppm as CaCO3 alkalinity cancellation.

I'm really more concerned about the potential of dehydroascorbic acid to oxidize things in the beer. As the link notes people that use ascorbic acid to put the beer in the reduced state add bisulfite to keep it there. I don't understand why they just don't use bisulfite and be done with it and I know some do just that.

If, after becoming aware of the potential shortcomings, you still wish to use ascorbic acid I see no problem with that as long as, in your opinion, your beer isn't negatively effected. I just don't see that ascorbic acid is any better. The comment that less is required is, IMO, meaningless as the amounts required in either case are small and campden tablets last forever and are cheap. FCC ascorbic acid isn't but again, given the small amounts required, that wouldn't be a factor if the stuff had a good shelf life.

 

[uatuba]

Don't the byproducts of fermentation reduce dehydroascorbic acid?

 

[ajdelange]

Yes they do and in the process become oxidized. That, in a nutshell, is the problem as I understand it.

 

[bobobio]

I've just started trying to figure out what's in my water (and how important it is to remove what). I've just moved to Slovenia and the tap water's potable and tastes good, but quite hard, but I'm going for a very hoppy IPA, so I think that's a good thing. It's the Chlorine/Chloramine I'm worried about. I found some evidence that there's little (0.5 mg/l) to no Chlorine, but haven't found mention of Chloramine. I filled a 6.5g bucket with water today and if anything it seems to have a slightly blue tint....could be greenish though, I'm not sure (and a bit paranoid).

So my question is HOW green does Chloramined water look?

I'm back and forth on whether to boil the possibly small amount of Chlorine out and chill it in the fridge overnight. The boiling would also be to sanitize the water - something I've not done before. Any comments on my plan?

Thanks,
Karl