Chlorine for sanitation: any input on this?

[RavenChief]

That's why you put them into the water separately. Bleaches sanitizing power is not from it's ph, it's from the chlorine. When you lower the ph of bleach, it is more effective as a sanitizer.

Ok, I am tempted to go into a long discussion of the chemical properties of chlorine bleach but I think that would probably be a waste of time. So here is another reason that you may understand.

Don't mix chlorine bleach with any acid.
Toxic chlorine vapor is produced.

 

[foamy]

Good exchange, I'm considering bleach for my next (4th) batch. Anyone ever had a problem with film leftover, especially on the bottles, from using no-rinse? It was so bad on my last batch I had to rinse and scrub.

 

[Bmorebrew]

I'm not going to try to persuade anyone from changing the way they do things, just want to drop in a bit of advice for the bleach users. If you rinse with water (I am not violently opposed to using bleach, but I would certainly rinse), rinse with cold tap water only. Do not use hot. Do not even turn on the hot water knob. Cold only. Bacteria should not be living in your water if you are on a municipal supply with chlorine (or chloramine). You ought to have a little residual chlorine in the water for the exact purpose of preventing bacterial growth. If you have bacteria in your water, infecting a batch of beer is of the least of your concerns right now. Hot water tanks can - I'm not saying often do, but can - harbor bacteria. Because they are warm and like to promote incubation. Plus because they are full of heated water that can sit for some time, the chlorine can be lost. Do not use hot water.

And remove your aerator, they can harbor bacteria. And then clean the end of the faucet once you have removed the aerator with bleach and then rinse with cold tap water. Bacteria could be hiding in the threads. But bacteria should not be in your water supply. By design it is meant to reach your house clean and safe.

Oh, and also bypass your water softener if you do this, that's another place you can run into trouble.

 

[Homercidal]

Good exchange, I'm considering bleach for my next (4th) batch. Anyone ever had a problem with film leftover, especially on the bottles, from using no-rinse? It was so bad on my last batch I had to rinse and scrub.

I have never seen any residue from starsan. In fact, I use it to remove the film I occasionally get form Oxiclean when I leave my bottles soaking too long.

I always mix with distilled water, though, so that may help. Mixing with distilled allows me to keep a diluted supply in a jug for months.

 

[Hopheader]

Personally, I have a chlorophenol paranoia for my beers and, therefore, use no-rinse sanitizers. If you really wanted to, bleach the snot out of it if it makes you happy, rinse rinse rinse rinse, then when you think you're done, rinse again. Then let it sit and dry out. Then use a no-rinse sanitizer.



And, yes, I use distilled water also. After the wort is created, no unsanitary and/or chlorinated water touches my beer.

 

[yodalegomaster]

I would like to point out that cleaning\sanitizing beer equipment is a 2 step process, step one is cleaning and step 2 is sanitizing. I use bleach all the time for cleaning, everything, it works, I rinse and then us star-san in a spray bottle.

 

[seabass07]

Ok, I am tempted to go into a long discussion of the chemical properties of chlorine bleach but I think that would probably be a waste of time. So here is another reason that you may understand.

Don't mix chlorine bleach with any acid.
Toxic chlorine vapor is produced.

That only happens if you directly mix them. If you add them to water separately, you don't have that reaction. That is the way that the owner of 5 star chemicals said to use bleach as a sanitizer.

 

[MycoMitosis]

I've used bleach ONLY for the apx 20 years I've homebrewed, and I've never had a problem.

A lot of folks seem to think that home pipes are loaded with bacteria and therefore recommend not rinsing. The same folks also seem to forget that the city water supply ALSO uses chlorine/chloramides to keep the water safe, and that same chlorine will be in coming out of the tap, too.

I normally use about 2 oz of bleach in a 5-gallon carboy full of water to clean the carboy. I then drain and rinse with about a gallon of water.

On brewday (or the day before), I use a water sprayer in a bucket, with 1 gallon of water and about 1/2 oz of bleach. The inside of the carboy gets sprayed with that mixture for about 1 hour (the carboy is upside down). I then drain it, and rinse it with about 1 gallon of tap water. M_C

Hello all! I am a rank beginner brewer, so disregard my input completely! That said, I think that Misplaced_Canuck has summed it up perfectly; bleach is wonderful stuff, when used correctly, and rinsed appropriately. For all those concerned with rinsing, please consider, as Misplaced_Canuck mentioned, that there is already a healthy dose of Chlorine in most municipal water supplies, and it's there to prohibit microbial growth. Further, the act of rinsing physically washes microbes away. I second the use of bleach as a sanitizer, and so does the revered Mr. Papazian. I feel that puts me, and veterans like Misplaced_Canuck, in good company. Just my $0.02 ;-)

As always, best of luck and happy brewing!

-MM

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Ok, I am tempted to go into a long discussion of the chemical properties of chlorine bleach but I think that would probably be a waste of time. So here is another reason that you may understand.

Don't mix chlorine bleach with any acid.
Toxic chlorine vapor is produced.

I made the same argument when this came up a few years ago. It turns out that I wasn't entirely correct, and neither are you.

While it's true that mixing a strong bleach solution with a strong acid is a HORRIBLE (and potentially lethal) idea, lowering the pH of a mild bleach sanitizing solution with vinegar can be safe and effective. It's important to note that the bleach solution must be fairly dilute before the addition of any acid. I'll see if I can dig up a source for you.

EDIT: Source(s)
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-02/asfm-vik021306.php

I wish I could find the chemical equation that I remember someone posting. It showed the reason that dilute bleach and dilute acids can mix safely without liberating chlorine gas. However, I'm coming up empty handed, and I'm no chemistry major.

 

[RavenChief]

I made the same argument when this came up a few years ago. It turns out that I wasn't entirely correct, and neither are you.

While it's true that mixing a strong bleach solution with a strong acid is a HORRIBLE (and potentially lethal) idea, lowering the pH of a mild bleach sanitizing solution with vinegar can be safe and effective. It's important to note that the bleach solution must be fairly dilute before the addition of any acid. I'll see if I can dig up a source for you.

EDIT: Source(s)
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-02/asfm-vik021306.php

I wish I could find the chemical equation that I remember someone posting. It showed the reason that dilute bleach and dilute acids can mix safely without liberating chlorine gas. However, I'm coming up empty handed, and I'm no chemistry major.

Wither a chemical is a weak vs a strong acid or base is not dependent on the concentration (dilution) molarity of the aqueous solution, but is dependent on the chemicals ability to gain or release hydrogen protons. Bleach is considered a "strong" base and acetic acid (vinegar) is considered a "weak" acid. however, it is reactive enough with bleach to release chlorine gas.

What Happens When Bleach and Vinegar Are Mixed

Chlorine bleach contains sodium hypochlorite or NaOCl. Because bleach is sodium hypochlorite in water, the sodium hypochlorite in bleach actually exists as hypochlorous acid:

NaOCl + H2O ↔ HOCl + Na+ + OH-

Hypochlorous acid is a strong oxidizer. This is what makes it so good at bleaching and disinfection. If you mix bleach with an acid, chlorine gas will be produced. For example, if you mix bleach with toilet bowl cleaner, which contains hydrochloric acid:

HOCl + HCl ↔ H2O + Cl2

Chlorine gas attacks mucous membranes, such as your eyes, throat, and lungs and can kill you, so causing that reaction isn't in your best interest. If you mix bleach with another acid, such as the acetic acid found in vinegar, you get essentially the same result:

2HOCl + 2HAc ↔ Cl2 + 2H2O + 2Ac- (Ac : CH3COO)

There is an equilibrium between the chlorine species that is influenced by pH. When the pH is lowered, as by adding toilet bowl cleaner or vinegar, the ratio of chlorine gas in increased. When the pH is raised, the ratio of hypochlorite ion is increased. Hypochlorite ion is a less efficient oxidizer than hypochlorous acid, so some people will intentionally lower the pH of bleach to increase the oxidizing power of the chemical, even though chlorine gas is produced as a result.

I don't know how dilute these chemicals would need to be in order "safely" combine these chemicals, but I think this falls into the catagory of "please don't try this at home".

 

[beeber]

I am a long time bleach user, close to 20 years in all. A fellow brewer turned me on to starsan last year. It took a few batches to get past concern about the foam, but the convenience and time savings of a no rinse sanitizer is really substantial. Try it you might like it.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

My personal bottom line is this: If either bleach or Starsan has worked well for you in the past, and that you're happy with the products you're creating, there's really no need to change.

I've got my cleaning/sanitizing downpath using bleach and it's working fine. I'm sure I could change to Starsan and it would be fine too, but why mess with something that works without problems? Some would say "to save time", but I don't really think that using Starsan would save me that much time.

My only point of contention is this one: I'm not crazy about having sanitizing solution residue in my carboys when I'm about to put wort into it. I'd still want to rinse it out if I was using Starsan. I rinse bleach out of my carboys before use.

M_C

 

[Homercidal]

I am a long time bleach user, close to 20 years in all. A fellow brewer turned me on to starsan last year. It took a few batches to get past concern about the foam, but the convenience and time savings of a no rinse sanitizer is really substantial. Try it you might like it.

I agree. But for some people, it's like trying to get your kids to try a new food.

 

[seabass07]

Wither a chemical is a weak vs a strong acid or base is not dependent on the concentration (dilution) molarity of the aqueous solution, but is dependent on the chemicals ability to gain or release hydrogen protons. Bleach is considered a "strong" base and acetic acid (vinegar) is considered a "weak" acid. however, it is reactive enough with bleach to release chlorine gas.

What Happens When Bleach and Vinegar Are Mixed

Chlorine bleach contains sodium hypochlorite or NaOCl. Because bleach is sodium hypochlorite in water, the sodium hypochlorite in bleach actually exists as hypochlorous acid:

NaOCl + H2O ↔ HOCl + Na+ + OH-

Hypochlorous acid is a strong oxidizer. This is what makes it so good at bleaching and disinfection. If you mix bleach with an acid, chlorine gas will be produced. For example, if you mix bleach with toilet bowl cleaner, which contains hydrochloric acid:

HOCl + HCl ↔ H2O + Cl2

Chlorine gas attacks mucous membranes, such as your eyes, throat, and lungs and can kill you, so causing that reaction isn't in your best interest. If you mix bleach with another acid, such as the acetic acid found in vinegar, you get essentially the same result:

2HOCl + 2HAc ↔ Cl2 + 2H2O + 2Ac- (Ac : CH3COO)

There is an equilibrium between the chlorine species that is influenced by pH. When the pH is lowered, as by adding toilet bowl cleaner or vinegar, the ratio of chlorine gas in increased. When the pH is raised, the ratio of hypochlorite ion is increased. Hypochlorite ion is a less efficient oxidizer than hypochlorous acid, so some people will intentionally lower the pH of bleach to increase the oxidizing power of the chemical, even though chlorine gas is produced as a result.

I don't know how dilute these chemicals would need to be in order "safely" combine these chemicals, but I think this falls into the catagory of "please don't try this at home".

I'm not a chemist, but I do pretend to be one on the internet occasionally. I'm too hung over at the moment to do any research, so I'll point you to the brew strong sanitation podcast. They have the guy from five star chemicals on there and he talks a great deal about using bleach. It's very informative! http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/469

Jon Herskovits (the creator of starsan) is a chemist and I trust what he says, especially when he is being recorded during an interview and could be sued for telling people to do something that could kill them. Also do a search for acidified bleach. You'll find a lot of warnings about mixing them directly, but they all say to dilute the bleach in water, then add vinegar to the water. You generally add 1 or 2 ounces of bleach and vinegar to a gallon of water.

I've been using it to occasionally clean my plastics as well as my bathroom for a while! It works and is not dangerous...unless you drink it.

 

[t2000kw]

any input on this method of sanitizing?

You may want to use a lower concentration of bleach. I think the recommended amount is 1 oz per 5 gallons, so if you have a 6.5 gal primary fermenter, add a little more to compensate.

I used bleach for several years before switching to iodophor. Bleach didn't cause me any problems, but some claim that it needs to be rinsed thoroughly from your equipment before using it or you could have some "band-aid" flavor from it. However, if you rinse the bleach off, you could end up adding undesired micro-organisms (bacteria, yeasts, etc.) to your equipment surface.

The commercial no-rinse sanitizers don't have the problems I mentioned above. I chose iodophor because it's cheap, quick (2 minutes contact time), and effective, and it's a no-rinse sanitizer at a concentration of 12 ppm (the directions iwll tell you how much to use). I bought a gallon of it several years ago for less than $40 and it will last me many years. It was packaged as a dairy equipment sanitizer but was the same thing as BTF iodophor, which costs more. Even the BTF brand is fairly inexpensive compared to Star San and some other commercial products.

I think it's Star San that foams and claims to be able to penetrate into cracks and crevices in your equipment. I don't personally think that the foaming would be any better than a water-iodophor liquid penetrating into those places, but there may be something to that.

One thing that is a big negative about iodophor--it stains!!! It can stain your equipment if it's plastic. The stain will not affect your brewing process one bit, but it may put you off visually. And, if you're not a careful person, it can stain clothing, floors, concrete, and other things. Some of these stains will come out with an oxygen or chlorine bleach if you need to remove them.

Products like Star San don't stain, and for that reason many choose to use it instead of the less expensive but still effective iodophor.

Chlorine (before it's diluted) can bleach out clothing pretty quickly, as you probably are aware, so it has some of the concerns that iodophor does. Chlorine bleach also can corrode stainless steel, so you don't want to leave it in any SS container very long. Iodophor, in the recommended concentration, doesn't exhibit this problem. Be sure to buy a bleach with no scent in it or you will be sorry!!!

That said, many brewers have used chlorine without any issues at all and have never switched to another sanitizer. The idea someone mentioned about using vinegar with chlorine to make a no-rinse sanitizer is probably a good idea, because the chlorine works better at a lower pH (in an acid environment), if I remember correctly, and vinegar would drop the pH of a solution since it's 5% (normally) acetic acid.

Here's a link:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Homemade_No_Rinse_Sanitizer

1 oz (white, not apple cider type) vinegar in 5 gal of water, mix, then add 1 oz chlorine bleach. (adjust for a larger volume)

The information didn't say how long to leave your equipment soak in it. I would think that at least 5 minutes would be needed but perhaps someone on this forum knows more about this.

Donald

 

[stoutman7]

I use bleach to sanitize. I usually make a pretty strong ratio in a large bucket and dump everything in. I boil a huge pot of hot water and rinse everything with it. The hot water gets all the residue off and I have never had a problem with medicinal tastes in my beer due to chlorine.

 

[goiked]

Never had problems with bleach in 18 years of brewing. A quick rinse and your good. Also bleach is cheap. Don't use it in stainless steal leave that for the Iodophor...

 

[Special Hops]

I don't think anyone is saying bleach isn't a cheap or effective sanitizer.

It's just that there are alternatives out there that are much easier to use.

Soak everything in bleach and rinse real well. Or mix some no rinse in a spray bottler and spritz stuff down as you use it.

 

[dragonlor20]

FWIW: Papazians book gives a recipe for santizing with bleach. He said use an ounce of bleach to 5 gallons of water. Since an ounce is roughly equal to 2TBSP that is 1 TBSP to 2.5 gallons. You were supposed to rinse well after that.

You are using 1TBSP to 1 gallon and NOT rinsing.

There is a way to make no-rinse chlorine based sanitizer (as dfborn suggested, check out podcasts with Charlie Tally, maker of Star-san) which involves mixing the proper amount of bleach with vinegar.

At the dosage you are using, I think you might want to be rinsing that stuff off. My 0.02

IN SOLUTION! Don't mix bleach and chlorine directly!

 

[dragonlor20]

I brewed with bleach for years and it was ok. The thing is that it is just such a pain you have to bleach for 20 minutes vs 2 minutes with starsan. You have to heat a second batch of water for rinsing. Lots of extra shaking and movement to rinse everything. Starsan is just easy - if you miss some it turns to phosphoric acid at the ph of beer. Starsan took some non-brewing time out of my brew day and i like when I can do that.

 

[Homercidal]

I brewed with bleach for years and it was ok. The thing is that it is just such a pain you have to bleach for 20 minutes vs 2 minutes with starsan. You have to heat a second batch of water for rinsing. Lots of extra shaking and movement to rinse everything. Starsan is just easy - if you miss some it turns to phosphoric acid at the ph of beer. Starsan took some non-brewing time out of my brew day and i like when I can do that.

Well, technically, Charlie at Five Star claims you only need 30 seconds, but they have to put a minute and a half on the label to appease the FDA.