Chlorine for sanitation: any input on this?

[BrewinBigD]

I Recently tried using regular chlorine bleach for cleaning my brewing equipment, the ratio i use is 1 TBSP to 1 gallon of water which creates a no-rinse bleach solution. I rinse anyway to remove any odors. works great for soaking bottles and metal parts, and also is great for getting the beer odor out of my primary buckets after i drain them. any input on this method of sanitizing?

 

[dfborn]

You should check out the 3/29/07 episode of Basis Brewing Radio. The creator of Star San is on the show and he actually talks quite a bit about how to sanitize with bleach.

 

[BetterSense]

I think that by rinsing you are defeating your sanitation. When you use no-rinse sanitizer, at least you know the stuff your are rinsing your equipment off with is sanitary. The point is that tap water might have all kinds of bacteria in it from running through your pipes and fittings. If you rinse your stuff after sanitizing, you are defeating your sanitization IMO.

I've never used bleach but I'm thinking about it. I'm out of Iodophor at the moment and I always have tons of bleach. Does anyone use bleach as a no-rinse sanitizing solution with good (tasty) results?

 

[unionrdr]

Ime,any kind of bleach needs to be rinsed thoroughly to get the bleach smell out. Even cooper's sodium percarbonate smells of bleach to me,& had to be rinsed a few times to get it out. I use star-san all the time now. Quicker & easier.

 

[broadbill]

FWIW: Papazians book gives a recipe for santizing with bleach. He said use an ounce of bleach to 5 gallons of water. Since an ounce is roughly equal to 2TBSP that is 1 TBSP to 2.5 gallons. You were supposed to rinse well after that.

You are using 1TBSP to 1 gallon and NOT rinsing.

There is a way to make no-rinse chlorine based sanitizer (as dfborn suggested, check out podcasts with Charlie Tally, maker of Star-san) which involves mixing the proper amount of bleach with vinegar.

At the dosage you are using, I think you might want to be rinsing that stuff off. My 0.02

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

I've used bleach ONLY for the apx 20 years I've homebrewed, and I've never had a problem.

A lot of folks seem to think that home pipes are loaded with bacteria and therefore recommend not rinsing. The same folks also seem to forget that the city water supply ALSO uses chlorine/chloramides to keep the water safe, and that same chlorine will be in coming out of the tap, too.

I normally use about 2 oz of bleach in a 5-gallon carboy full of water to clean the carboy. I then drain and rinse with about a gallon of water.

On brewday (or the day before), I use a water sprayer in a bucket, with 1 gallon of water and about 1/2 oz of bleach. The inside of the carboy gets sprayed with that mixture for about 1 hour (the carboy is upside down). I then drain it, and rinse it with about 1 gallon of tap water.

M_C

 

[BrewinBigD]

I have some star-san and also some c-brite, and when using those products to clean my primaries and secondaries (i use buckets) it doesn't seem to pull all of the beer odor out of the plastic, but the bleach does if i do a thorough soak (15 min or so). and if you use the ratio that i do, you can detect nearly no bleach taste or odor. after my first full batch i tried the bleach and after the equipment was dry there was no odor of bleach whatsoever, it wasn't until after my second batch that i started to second rinse. The only issue I've noticed using the bleach is if youre siphoning or transferring with clear vinyl tubing the bleach will begin to cloud the tubing after a couple of uses. cheap enough to replace though.

 

[broadbill]

I have some star-san and also some c-brite, and when using those products to clean my primaries and secondaries (i use buckets) it doesn't seem to pull all of the beer odor out of the plastic, but the bleach does if i do a thorough soak (15 min or so). and if you use the ratio that i do, you can detect nearly no bleach taste or odor. after my first full batch i tried the bleach and after the equipment was dry there was no odor of bleach whatsoever, it wasn't until after my second batch that i started to second rinse. The only issue I've noticed using the bleach is if youre siphoning or transferring with clear vinyl tubing the bleach will begin to cloud the tubing after a couple of uses. cheap enough to replace though.

The leftover beer odor really isn't an issue for me, since I'm going to be brewing more beer in them.

I sounds like you have something that is working for you. Not sure why you would ask for input then pretty much ignore it, telling us that your way works. OK great....your way works...keep on doing what you are doing then...

 

[broadbill]

I've used bleach ONLY for the apx 20 years I've homebrewed, and I've never had a problem.

A lot of folks seem to think that home pipes are loaded with bacteria and therefore recommend not rinsing. The same folks also seem to forget that the city water supply ALSO uses chlorine/chloramides to keep the water safe, and that same chlorine will be in coming out of the tap, too.

I normally use about 2 oz of bleach in a 5-gallon carboy full of water to clean the carboy. I then drain and rinse with about a gallon of water.

On brewday (or the day before), I use a water sprayer in a bucket, with 1 gallon of water and about 1/2 oz of bleach. The inside of the carboy gets sprayed with that mixture for about 1 hour (the carboy is upside down). I then drain it, and rinse it with about 1 gallon of tap water.

M_C

I found the same thing to be true, back when I used bleach to sanitize; I never had a problem with the rinse water. I switched to star-san to streamline/minimize my santitation processes, that's all.

 

[BrewinBigD]

The leftover beer odor really isn't an issue for me, since I'm going to be brewing more beer in them.

I sounds like you have something that is working for you. Not sure why you would ask for input then pretty much ignore it, telling us that your way works. OK great....your way works...keep on doing what you are doing then...

I'm just starting out homebrewing, im 2 batches in so far and trying to learn as much as I can, thats all, it works, but other peoples input is nothing but a tool for me to use.

 

[onipar]

I used bleach solution and c-brite my first couple batches (but I rinsed thoroughly after use). it worked fine, and I'm sure it would have kept working fine, but it was also a pain. I bought Star San, and use it in a spray bottle. It's much quicker and easier.

I'm really cheap, and I try to save money whenever I can, but Star San was a no brainer after a couple brew sessions without it.

As for not rinsing bleach, everything I've read suggests that's not a good idea. The *only* thing I read that suggests otherwise is that podcast people keep referring to, which explains how to make a no-rinse sanitizer from bleach, vinegar, and water (in a very specific order and concentration, otherwise it can be dangerous).

Chlorine in your brew has the potential of creating off-flavors, which is why most people won't use it at all, and if they do, rinse it off. But again, if what you're doing is working for you, then keep on keeping on.

 

[Hang Glider]

Bleach is safe and effective, but must be rinsed, unless, of course, you enjoy beer that tastes like bandaids. Chlorine and chloramines will make a distinct taste in the final product.

What works for you is fine - carry on....

(star san user, but not on the payroll)

 

[chazzman]

I sanaitize with bleach then "rinse" in water with one or two campden tablets to
neutralize the bleach and campden also weighs in on bacteria for kind of a "one
two punch". If you would like to "one step" sanutize, I think campden would be
a better way to go unles you are allergic. Chlorine has been reported to give some
finished beers a BandAid flavor or smell.

 

[Special Hops]

I used bleach for a while until I found Star-San. I would never go back to bleach.

Star-San is cheap, easy to use, fool proof (pretty much), no-rinse, no fuss.

 

[seabass07]

I periodically bleach bomb my plastics with acidified bleach, but I always rinse the hell out of it. There are too many accounts of off flavors from just the small amounts of clorides in tap water. I'd rather not risk it when starsan is very cheap when you use it in a spray bottle.

 

[BrewerinBR]

I use a mixture of 5 gallons of water with 2 ounces of bleach and 2 ounces of vinegar. I soak everything to be sanitized for 20 minutes minimum. I rinse everything with boiled and or boiling water (bottles I sanitize then boil... ok ok so I am a little anal). I have a well and I am sure the water is safe and clean and perfect (yes it has been tested multiple times) but still it's my beer so I want no issues with chlorine & vinegar off flavors or with unwanted bugs from tap water. So far no problems or issues and no off flavors. I wash all equipment with oxyclean after I use it and before I use it (like I said I am very anal about my cleaning --- yes I have a clean desk and neat and tidy work shop --- so ok I have a sick mind...) it is all about making great beer so it is worth it.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

There's only one place in town where I live that carries Star-San, and they are 30 minutes each way, and not opened on Sundays when I brew... So... Bleach it is.

I had to brew in my messy garage yesterday, with oil stains, cob webs, etc etc etc. We'll see how the 2 batches turn out, while using bleach as my sanitizer (as usual).

Yes, that's oil, dirt and grease on the stand where the mash tun is.

M_C

 

[Homercidal]

There's only one place in town where I live that carries Star-San, and they are 30 minutes each way, and not opened on Sundays when I brew... So... Bleach it is.

I had to brew in my messy garage yesterday, with oil stains, cob webs, etc etc etc. We'll see how the 2 batches turn out, while using bleach as my sanitizer (as usual).

Yes, that's oil, dirt and grease on the stand where the mash tun is.

M_C

My LHBS is an hour and a half away. I mix a couple of quarts of Starsan in distilled water and it lasts months if not years, and I haven't been very careful about how I use it until recently. It's so much quicker than bleach and rinsing that I just don't understand why people prefer bleach over it.

Just spritz with a spray bottle and let sit 30 seconds. Drip excess and use whatever it is you sanitized.

 

[BrewinBigD]

well i guess this week's brew will be star san clean. , you guys got me all nervous about drinking bandaids in the fututre if i ever eff up the ratio. thanks to all for the input!

 

[DrJerryrigger]

I'd recommend to not use bleach (because there are easier ways, but I've used it and it works.
Some of the ways I've used it (I don't know if I'd recommend them, but they worked for me):
I keep a spray bottle of 1:10 beach/water (for many house hold uses). A mist of this will quickly sanitize anything (if you get it in your eye you will go blind). A soak in this will sterilize things.
When I use the strong concentration bleach I do a light rinse with hot tap water. The idea is to dilute the bleach water that is on it to a lower level, but still high enough to keep the water sanitized.

You can do further rinsing with boiled water, but that's a PITA.

Then air or oven dry. Sniff test before using anything, if it still smells like a swimming pool don't use it.

When using lower concentrations I did not rinse, and usually oven dried. Once bottles get warm in the oven shake them out. You'll be able to get more of the liquid out of them at higher temps (water viscosity; blah blah blah...)

 

[Scooby_Brew]

I have been brewing for about 11 years now and for the first 8-9 years I used bleach for sanitizing with fantastic resolutes. I used to add a cup of bleach to a 5 gal of water for sanitizing and I had a bucket of clean water for rinsing right next to it. I never had an infection in my beer, not even once.
The only drawback was all the bleach-stained jeans and t-shirts

I use StarSan now and I like the no-rinse part, but I'm not so convinced about it's sanitizing power, since I see a ton of posts on this forum from young brewers crying their eyes out about an infected beer. They all seem to use one of the "no-rinse" sanitizers.

One of the reasons I used bleach for so many years is that I remember watching the Discovery Channel years ago and they had a program about doctors and nurses fighting the Ebola disease and other killer diseases in Africa. Guess what those doctors used for disinfecting their Hazmat suites when exiting a hospital full of Ebola infected patients? You guessed it, they used bleach water to save them from the most infectious Ebola disease on Earth. Just some food for thought.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

The only drawback was all the bleach-stained jeans and t-shirts

Guess what those doctors used for disinfecting their Hazmat suites when exiting a hospital with Ebola infected patients? You guessed it, they used bleach water to save them from the most infectious Ebola disease on Earth. Just some food for thought.

Well said. About the jeans and t-shirts... I keep separate clothes specifically for brewing related activities.

M_C

 

[Homercidal]

FWIW there may be a lot of threads crying out about infected beer, but I haven't seen many that were actually infected.

And I don't think anyone is arguing about bleach's killing power if mixed properly. But I doubt the scientists had to worry about rinsing with clean water to avoid off flavors...

 

[Hang Glider]

Yeah, I hear when they licked their hazmat suits, it tasted like....








Band Aids...

 

[unionrdr]

In my experiences here,most just didn't know what a normal fermentation looks like with different yeasts from one batch to another. Especially with carboys/better bottles. And the few that did get infected was due to operator error. Anytime anything touches the beer,it must be sanitized 1st with a sanitizer of the proper dilution. That's simple chemistry that should always work if used correctly.

 

[Special Hops]

There's only one place in town where I live that carries Star-San, and they are 30 minutes each way, and not opened on Sundays when I brew... So... Bleach it is.

I had to brew in my messy garage yesterday, with oil stains, cob webs, etc etc etc. We'll see how the 2 batches turn out, while using bleach as my sanitizer (as usual).

Yes, that's oil, dirt and grease on the stand where the mash tun is.

M_C

Next time you are near there puck up a big jug of it. I bought maybe a half gallons worth about 8 years ago and still have over half of it left. it lasts a long time.

 

[geezerpk]

I use a mixture of 5 gallons of water with 2 ounces of bleach and 2 ounces of vinegar.

+! on the bleach plus vinegar. The vinegar lowers the ph of the water and makes the bleach work much better. 15 minute soak is probably overkill, but better to be safe, I skip the rinse — just drain dry.

 

[made-in-america]

Ok...here goes...I've been brewing for 3 years now...Have always used bleach for sanitation...usually a lot higher dose (around 1 cup to 3 gallons hot water). Always rinse everything thoroughly with my tap water (had tested for bacteria and got negative results...no bacteria)....Never had a problem with off taste, off smell...Gotta admit, the only problem I've ever had was when I screwed up and put to much priming sugar in a batch and lost all the bottles when they exploded...Maybe I'm lucky here but can't blame that error on bleach...80 gallons and still brewing :cross:

 

[RavenChief]

+! on the bleach plus vinegar. The vinegar lowers the ph of the water and makes the bleach work much better. 15 minute soak is probably overkill, but better to be safe, I skip the rinse — just drain dry.

OK, before you start mixing acids and bases togeather lets think about this, a little bit of basic chemistry: Acids are acids because they donate Hydrogen protons, (H) . Bases are bases because they take on or bind with hydrogen protons. Hydroxides such as (OH) readily combine with excess hydrogen protons to yield (H2O) water. If you mix acids and bases togeather on a one to one molar ratio you will achieve a solution of pure water. Interestingly, pure water with a pH of 7 has both acid and base properties H2O(Kw)=[H3O][OH] = 1x10 to the negative 14th power. That is the concentration hydronium ions to hydroxide ions are equal.
Anyway, acids taste sour and bases taste bitter. You can kill bacteria with either an acid (low pH) or a base (high pH) but if you neutralize your solution before you start, you may as well just use plain water...

 

[seabass07]

That's why you put them into the water separately. Bleaches sanitizing power is not from it's ph, it's from the chlorine. When you lower the ph of bleach, it is more effective as a sanitizer.