chloramines while sanitizing?

[kmudrick]

So, my local water supply (Philly) treats with chloramine. I already learned the lesson of using spring water or treated (potassium metabisulfite) for my brew water after losing my first two batches to the god of plastic beer grossness. Anyway, I usually clean (soak in oxyclean + scrub with bottle brush + blast with bottle jet) and sanitize (dunk in star san solution) with regular tap water. Anyone think this is a problem? Ocassionally I will run into bottles that I think have hints of plastic-taste to them, and one my friends thinks he gets hints from my stuff from time to time too. It is definitely not nasty like before, and it might be in my head, because I definitely stress / worry about this all the time.

Using spring water for cleaning purposes is going to get too expensive. I can't seem to find any local water filters at stores that are rated for chloramine removal. I don't particularly like the pot met solution, since I don't really like adding more chemicals to everything. Any suggestions?

Side note: how quickly can acetobacter develop and show itself? I bottled a pale ale last weekend (first/only beer I brewed with pot met treated water.) Tasted fine at bottling time, but the first bottle I sampled after 4 days seemed a little acidic/vinegary/cidery to me. I don't see any long rope-like strands of stuff floating in the bottles. I bottled with table sugar boiled in spring water (I always use table sugar for priming), but the beer itself was all-malt. Not sure what went wrong, or how patient I should be.

 

[EvilTOJ]

Cleaning your brewing equipment with tap water isn't going to do anything to your wort. The only water you really have to worry about is the water that goes into the actual beer.

And your beer is young, it'll be fine.

 

[kmudrick]

Cleaning your brewing equipment with tap water isn't going to do anything to your wort. The only water you really have to worry about is the water that goes into the actual beer.

True, but my understanding of how chlorophenols get produced, is that the yeast is metabolizing the chlorine/chloramine. Couldn't this happen during bottle fermentation if there are small amounts of tap water left behind?

 

[McSwiggin']

If by small amounts you mean a couple drops left in the bottle, then i would say no, you are not experiencing any off flavors from the yeast metabolizing the chloramines in the tap water. If your beer is green it can have tangy, plastic like flavors before it mellows out. Are you using the 1,2,3 guidelines?

Also, acetobactor can develop rather quickly if the enviroment in the bottle is optimum for it's production. C02 will keep it at bay. Acebactor generally likes "breathable" air with plenty of 02 in it. If you did have an infection, you will know in a short time. The vinegar taste and smell will be overpowering.

I think you will be O.K. You're plastic off taste may be coming from your equipment (something maybe is not food grade) or some residue of cleaner that is not rinsed enough. It is O.K. to give a short rinse with tap water even after you dunk in STAR SAN. Are you sanitizing your caps? That could be another cause.

All in all, make sure you wait several weeks before passing jugement on a batch.

Be sure to post your results so we can continue to help.

 

[Zymurgrafi]

if you are truly concerned get an inexpensive water filter you attach to the tap and filter the water. Or boil it and cool it before using.


All in all though, relax. Give it time.

 

[FlyingHorse]

if you are truly concerned get an inexpensive water filter you attach to the tap and filter the water. Or boil it and cool it before using.


All in all though, relax. Give it time.

FWIW, [edit] some [/edit] carbon filters will remove chloramines. Boiling will not.

But I agree with earlier posts in that the small amount of chloramines you're getting from resdual StarSan solution made from tap water is unlikely to be a problem.

 

[kmudrick]

If by small amounts you mean a couple drops left in the bottle, then i would say no, you are not experiencing any off flavors from the yeast metabolizing the chloramines in the tap water. If your beer is green it can have tangy, plastic like flavors before it mellows out. Are you using the 1,2,3 guidelines?

I never primary for any less than a week. Sometimes I secondary, anywhere from 10 days to 3 weeks. The 2 beers that I think may or may not have some bottles with some sort of a plastic taste to them have been in the bottle for a while. One has been in the bottle for over 3 months, the other has been in the bottle for about a month. It honestly could be in my head, because it is something I constantly worry about. But my friend notices a subtle offtaste specific to my beers in every bottle I bring him.

Also, acetobactor can develop rather quickly if the enviroment in the bottle is optimum for it's production. C02 will keep it at bay. Acebactor generally likes "breathable" air with plenty of 02 in it. If you did have an infection, you will know in a short time. The vinegar taste and smell will be overpowering.

I think you will be O.K. You're plastic off taste may be coming from your equipment (something maybe is not food grade) or some residue of cleaner that is not rinsed enough. It is O.K. to give a short rinse with tap water even after you dunk in STAR SAN. Are you sanitizing your caps? That could be another cause.

All in all, make sure you wait several weeks before passing jugement on a batch.

Be sure to post your results so we can continue to help.

Thanks. The beer I fear acetobacter in has only been in the bottle for about 8 days now. So, by breathable air, do you mean constant exposure, as opposed to the hour long duration while transferring to bottling bucket / filling / capping on bottle day? Something definitely happened to make it taste off between bottling day and the initial taste 4 days later. I can understand green beer being the result of something that was bottled after only a week of fermentation - but this was in my carboy for a solid 4 weeks before I bottled it.

I definitely always sanitize my caps in star san. All my tubing and transfer equipment has come from homebrew shops. My bottling bucket is a food grade fermenting bucket, so that's probably okay. I should ditch it though if it is suspect at all.

 

[kmudrick]

FWIW, carbon filters will remove chloramines. Boiling will not.

But I agree with earlier posts in that the small amount of chloramines you're getting from resdual StarSan solution made from tap water is unlikely to be a problem.

some carbon filters, though not all or even most, is what I thought. For instance, I cannot find anything at lowes or home depot that are rated for chloramine removal whatsoever.. though I can find random expensive filters online that seem to do the trick.

 

[FlyingHorse]

some carbon filters, though not all or even most, is what I thought.

Right you are...typo on my part. All filter carbon will do the trick, but the filter design needs to allow for suffciient contact time.

If you are worried and want a cheap solution, use a campden tab in your water before mixing up your StarSan.

 

[srm775]

some carbon filters, though not all or even most, is what I thought. For instance, I cannot find anything at lowes or home depot that are rated for chloramine removal whatsoever.. though I can find random expensive filters online that seem to do the trick.

The whirlpool brand carbon filters at both lowes and home depot are both rated for removal of most, if not all, chlorine and chloramines.

 

[kmudrick]

The whirlpool brand carbon filters at both lowes and home depot are both rated for removal of most, if not all, chlorine and chloramines.

I've looked at every box - nothing about chloramine, only "removes most chlorine taste and odor". Offhand, do you know of any specific model numbers? Or can I assume that any carbon filter that says it gets rid of chlorine taste/odor - is sufficient for chloramine too, assuming I keep the flow rate pretty low?

 

[srm775]

I've looked at every box - nothing about chloramine, only "removes most chlorine taste and odor". Offhand, do you know of any specific model numbers? Or can I assume that any carbon filter that says it gets rid of chlorine taste/odor - is sufficient for chloramine too, assuming I keep the flow rate pretty low?

A carbon filter will remove chlorine and chloramine. If you notice a reduction in taste and order, then you should be fine.

I use the super-capacity whole house pre-filter with the carbon filter. You should be fine with this.

 

[McSwiggin']

as for your questions on acetobactor, yes, it would take constant open air exposure. I have a 2 gallon crock and a 10 gallon crock that I make fermented pickles in. It take up to a week of open air contact to even begin to notice any vinegar aroma or taste in the brine. It takes up to a month for complete fermentation. Now, it is possible to get some in there, but the C02 being produced by the yeast will keep it at bay 99.9% of the time. If you do have an infection, you will most certainly now it. I have made malt vinegar before (on purpose) and it takes a very long time.

One thought on your buckets, do you use a metal spoon? are there scratches in your buckets? This can lead to some problems as well.

Hope you find the solution, please keep us posted.

 

[kmudrick]

as for your questions on acetobactor, yes, it would take constant open air exposure. I have a 2 gallon crock and a 10 gallon crock that I make fermented pickles in. It take up to a week of open air contact to even begin to notice any vinegar aroma or taste in the brine. It takes up to a month for complete fermentation. Now, it is possible to get some in there, but the C02 being produced by the yeast will keep it at bay 99.9% of the time. If you do have an infection, you will most certainly now it. I have made malt vinegar before (on purpose) and it takes a very long time.

Interesting. It really tasted completely fine on bottling day, but 3 or 4 days later, not so good. It seemed really bizarre for it to turn that quickly. I can't really explain it - seemed way too quick for anything to really set in.

One thought on your buckets, do you use a metal spoon? are there scratches in your buckets? This can lead to some problems as well.

My bucket does not seem to be in bad shape - no noticeable huge scratches or anything - but I will definitely replace it before the next bottling.

Plastic spoon - clean and soaked in star san before I used it to stir up the priming solution / racked beer. I usually rely on the racking alone (via autosiphon) to do the mixing, rather than stirring with the spoon in addition. I did not go crazy splashing and stirring like a mad man, but still.

Only other thing I can think of, that were not normal this time, compared to previous bottlings - the first couple days in the bottle, the ambient temp in my basement (where they were) was like 72 degrees. All winter long when I was bottle conditioning most of my homebrew, it was closer to 65-67.

 

[McSwiggin']

HMMM, well I guess we will have to keep narrowing it down. I don't think it's the bottle conditioning temp. I live in Florida and my bottles age at an ambient temp of around 74 degrees.

 

[kmudrick]

Followup:

After a couple weeks of patience the beer tasted just fine. The cider/vinegar hints I was getting within the first week of bottling were not there later on. Everyone who tastes it generally enjoyed it. Not sure if it was just a poorly sanitized bottle or two, or if the safale us-05 really is magical given enough time

Anyhow, thanks for the help. Lesson learned: Patience is a virtue, just like my parents always said..

 

[kmudrick]

Followup:

After a couple weeks of patience the beer tasted just fine. The cider/vinegar hints I was getting within the first week of bottling were not there later on. Everyone who tastes it generally enjoyed it. Not sure if it was just a poorly sanitized bottle or two, or if the safale us-05 really is magical given enough time

Anyhow, thanks for the help. Lesson learned: Patience is a virtue, just like my parents always said..

 

[Dave R]

Wardley's Chlor-out neutralizes Chlorine and Chloramines. About 5 drops per gallon is all it takes. Works instantly. Get at your local Wally World in the tropical fish section.