Chillzilla as a HERMS and loving it.

[BrewBQ1]

Last fall I ruined a wheat with my RIMS system. We had two systems running together in the garage. On was running RIMS the other was not. Identical recipe. The RIMS system started to smell horrible. We ended up trashing the beer. When the heating element was removed it was covered in cooked protein.
The next weeks we added a 5g tank of water and started running water through the rims tube and into the water side of the chillzilla. Redid the brew with perfect results. All of our beers have been better after this change. I love it! We use it, along with NG, to reach a boil in our 55g BK. Last brew we went from our second batch sparge to boil in 7 min with a 36g boil.

 

[TrickyDick]

You are talking about the copper CFC with convoluted internal tube?

So you are using the RIMS to recirculate water through the Chillzilla and running wort through in opposite direction as a HERMS, and thus avoiding scorched malt.

You are brewing what 1 BBL batches? How long does it take to step up the entire mash volume from say 152 to a 168 mash out? I'm just curious. I have a Brutus style setup with direct fire mash tun and Blichman mash tun (15 gal). I find for some steps, I really need to ignore the PID/Thermocouple reading and go by the dial thermometer. The PID will cycle on/off, and I'll never hit temps if I just rely on the recirculation. I may switch to infusion step mashing, but in the meantime, I just stop the recirculation, and leave the burner on and stir the mash continuously until I get within 1-2 degree of desired rest temp. I have NOT been having scorched wort problems. I also use a Chillzilla for cooling. I am curious about how you conduct step mashing with a HERMs and what the thermodynamics are like. Do you set the temp of the RIMS for the step temp you want to achieve, or a few degrees higher, and then monitor the wort temp on the outlet of the chillzilla? Also (repeat ?) curious on time it takes to change the mash temp.

TD

 

[BrewBQ1]

The RIMS thermocouple is at the wort output of the heat exchanger (chillzilla CFC)
I am only running 20 amps of 240v, so going from winter ground water to strike temp for a 1 barrel brew takes about an hour. The step mashes we have done do take a little longer than I would like. I plan in increase the power due to this. I didn't time it last time but after a protein rest it seems like it was around an hour to get the mash temp up. I monitor the actual internal mash temp as well. The temp of wort out rises quickly but getting the entire mash up to temp takes longer. I agree that setting the PID higher would likely help. I overshot doing this once and just need to play with it a little more

We use two 15g kegs at HLT. One of them is set to 200 and the other at 168. When it's time for mash out, we dump the first runnings and add the 200 degree water. This along with the heat exchanger brings us to 168 in just a few min. Our efficiency is almost always at about 80%

If we did not run such big batches this set up would respond quite quickly.

 

[TrickyDick]

So what do you mean dump the first runnings? Batch sparge?

which HLT are you using for step mashes, the one with 168º water or 200º water?

My setup on which I brew 11 gallon batches (figuring i'll end up with 10 gallons finished beer), when direct heating the mash tun, steps can take 15-20 minutes to hit temp if they are both small temp increments, and letting the recirc PID controller do its thing. Otherwise, if I stop recirc and stir the mash tun with burner going, and just monitor the dial thermometer, it takes 5-10 minutes usually, mash out maybe a bit longer. Am thinking about just using infusion steps, but not totally committed to that just yet. the HERMS option is interesting, as I suspect the PID would not cycle on/off all the time like it does now, and I could avoid standing over the mash tun stirring it with a 100k btu burner in front of me. Thats a big reason why the steps take about 2x-3x longer when I let the PID/recirc mash just do its thing. One of the limitations of a direct fire mash tun that nobody really talks about. The mash recirc cannot be wide open or it'll become stuck. Plus once you're done manually stirring, you have to recirc for 15 min or more if it was a mash out step, just to get the wort clear again. The Herms sounds appealing.

TD

 

[BrewBQ1]

So what do you mean dump the first runnings? Batch sparge?

which HLT are you using for step mashes, the one with 168º water or 200º water?

My setup on which I brew 11 gallon batches (figuring i'll end up with 10 gallons finished beer), when direct heating the mash tun, steps can take 15-20 minutes to hit temp if they are both small temp increments, and letting the recirc PID controller do its thing. Otherwise, if I stop recirc and stir the mash tun with burner going, and just monitor the dial thermometer, it takes 5-10 minutes usually, mash out maybe a bit longer. Am thinking about just using infusion steps, but not totally committed to that just yet. the HERMS option is interesting, as I suspect the PID would not cycle on/off all the time like it does now, and I could avoid standing over the mash tun stirring it with a 100k btu burner in front of me. Thats a big reason why the steps take about 2x-3x longer when I let the PID/recirc mash just do its thing. One of the limitations of a direct fire mash tun that nobody really talks about. The mash recirc cannot be wide open or it'll become stuck. Plus once you're done manually stirring, you have to recirc for 15 min or more if it was a mash out step, just to get the wort clear again. The Herms sounds appealing.

TD

Yep batch sparge in three steps. Empty the tun, add 200 degree water circulate and dump, add 168 water circulate and dump.

Neither water tank is used for step mash. Thats all done with the herms. Im just using one tank to make getting up to mash out faster.

We had a similar problem with flow on the system with a false bottom. Our tun has a manifold and we can run the pump wide open. Adding herms really does not make your system heat differently than you are doing. It just makes it so the wort never touches the supper hot heating element.

The PID still cycles on and off a lot to hold temp, mainly because we are using such a small water volume for heating.

 

[TrickyDick]

So you're using a fourth vessel to heat the HERMS water, not recirculating water from either HLT, and using a small volume of water. I had thought you were recirculating water from one of the HLT tanks.

Your goal with HERMS would be different than mine it seems. You don't want scorched wort. I want faster step times.

If I did as you are doing, Herms with a Chillzilla, I would probably use my sparge tank as a water source and run that into the Chillzilla full blast, with the wort recirculating at a slower pace. If I set the Sparge water at my mash temp step, there will be no risk of overshooting the mash temp. I would set the PID on the mash tun to the desired temp, and switch off the burner so it cannot ignite. I would have to of course monitor the mash temp dial thermometer as well to see when the whole mash tun is up to temp. This might make for faster temp steps on my system, because as long as the wort of going into the HERMS, it is being heated. Right now its only heating when the burner on the mash tun is fired, and that's always cycling on/off. I don't really care so much about the HLT burner cycling on/off. If the whole volume of sparge water is at the desired mash step temp I think it'll result in a faster step time for me. I might try this on my next brew if I can find all the fittings and what-not to adapt my system.

Thanks for the idea.

by the way, why do you batch sparge the second step with 200º water? I thought that would leech out tannins from the grain husks?

TD

 

[BrewBQ1]

So you're using a fourth vessel to heat the HERMS water, not recirculating water from either HLT, and using a small volume of water. I had thought you were recirculating water from one of the HLT tanks.

Your goal with HERMS would be different than mine it seems. You don't want scorched wort. I want faster step times.

If I did as you are doing, Herms with a Chillzilla, I would probably use my sparge tank as a water source and run that into the Chillzilla full blast, with the wort recirculating at a slower pace. If I set the Sparge water at my mash temp step, there will be no risk of overshooting the mash temp. I would set the PID on the mash tun to the desired temp, and switch off the burner so it cannot ignite. I would have to of course monitor the mash temp dial thermometer as well to see when the whole mash tun is up to temp. This might make for faster temp steps on my system, because as long as the wort of going into the HERMS, it is being heated. Right now its only heating when the burner on the mash tun is fired, and that's always cycling on/off. I don't really care so much about the HLT burner cycling on/off. If the whole volume of sparge water is at the desired mash step temp I think it'll result in a faster step time for me. I might try this on my next brew if I can find all the fittings and what-not to adapt my system.

Thanks for the idea.

by the way, why do you batch sparge the second step with 200º water? I thought that would leech out tannins from the grain husks?

TD

You are correct, we use a totally separate tank for the herms water.

The first sparge water in is at 200 only to help raise the temp faster. The second one is at 168. The tun never gets warmer than 168.

What you are talking about doing makes sense to me.