Champagne yeast for high alcohol?

[seanppp]

I want to do a super high ABV beer similar to Dogfish 120. I want to start it with Cal ale yeast and add sucrose gradually during the fermentation to get to around 16%. I know Cal ale won't ferment to that high of ABV, so when should I add the champagne yeast? Once I hit a certain percentage?

 

[bruteforce]

I'd add it about 10 days in. I've done that with 16%+ belgian quads and it worked well.

 

[MockY]

I don't have any experience with it, but WLP099 seems to fit the bill. Not a Cali yeast per se, but atleast you go ale yeast the whole way
http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp099-super-high-gravity-ale-yeast

 

[bierhund]

I'd be careful not adding too much sucrose. You can get off flavors, specifically apple.

 

[bruteforce]

I'd be careful not adding too much sucrose. You can get off flavors, specifically apple.

I'll second that. I like demerara and jaggery for this sort of thing. Overall, I added 5 pounds of sugar, about 4 oz every other day for a while and it came out great.

 

[bierhund]

A good rule of thumb is simple sugars should not make up more then 20% of your fermentable sugars.

 

[bruteforce]

A good rule of thumb is simple sugars should not make up more then 20% of your fermentable sugars.

Sure, its a good rule of thumb, but if you're trying to 16%+ and don't want syrup, its gets a little tricky.

I'm guessing you're familiar with DFH 120. Its nearly 50% sugar and turns out pretty decent.

 

[sweetcell]

i would wait for the cal/san diego super/ale yeast to complete primary, and for fermentation to die down a bit, before adding champagne yeast. my concern is with the fact that champagne is a killer yeast and will kill off the ale yeast. a few brewers, like the Mad Fermentationist, have reported that the killed yeast can contribute an off-flavor.

 

[specharka]

i would wait for the cal/san diego super/ale yeast to complete primary, and for fermentation to die down a bit, before adding champagne yeast. my concern is with the fact that champagne is a killer yeast and will kill off the ale yeast. a few brewers, like the Mad Fermentationist, have reported that the killed yeast can contribute an off-flavor.

Champagne yeast can't process higher order sugars like maltose and maltotriose like ale yeast can. Ale yeast always eat the simple sugars before progressing to the next available higher order sugar. If you keep inoculating it with simple sugar, it never gets a chance to clean up the higher order sugars before going dormant.

My guess is the WLP090 will call it quits around 11-12% and you will have to rely on another ale yeast to bring you across the finish line, like WLP099. I wouldn't even bother trying to pitch champagne yeast on this one. Just make a large starter of the WLP090 (3L) and a smaller one for WLP099 (1L). You will get enough character from the WLP090 up front that the funky esters of WLP099 take a back seat.

Make sure you pitch your wort sequentially and not all at once like a normal ale. This will keep the yeast in suspension and at work for the most time possible.

 

[Calder]

I'd be careful not adding too much sucrose. You can get off flavors, specifically apple.

Have you ever got this and been able to trace it back to sucrose? This is an old wives tale, that came about when kits contained a lot of simple sugars, yeasts were poor, and fermentation practices left a lot to be desired (like "just pour the dregs of a couple of bottles of XXXXXXX in for the yeast").

I'll second that. I like demerara and jaggery for this sort of thing. Overall, I added 5 pounds of sugar, about 4 oz every other day for a while and it came out great.

Demerara is pretty much the same thing as plain table sugar. It is just not refined as much. In essence, demerara is white sugar with some impurities left in.

A good rule of thumb is simple sugars should not make up more then 20% of your fermentable sugars.

Probably 10% is more like it for most beers to ensure you get the malt profile and do not thin the beer too much. Belgians can be up to 30% and more. It all depends on the beer.

This particular beer, takes upwards of 50% simple sugar. If treated right, sugar will not produce off flavors, and can be part of the signature of a great beer.

To answer the OPs original question. Once the original yeast has finished fermenting the beer to dryness, which is a finish below 1.010, you would then add the champagne yeast with the first simple sugar addition. As noted previously by someone, the champagne yeast will not convert the complex malt sugars, so the fermentation of the malt needs to be done before the champagne yeast is added. Champagne yeast is also a killer yeast, so once added, the original sacc yeast will quit working.

Beware though. If you continue adding sugar and monitoring gravity, once you get a finish above 1.010, the champagne yeast is also done. At this point the beer will not carbonate in the bottle. You will need to keg to get it carbed. If you bottle, you might want to plan the abv to about 14% and bottle then to ensure it will carb.

 

[slym2none]

I was just coming here to say something about sugar=apple flavours being an old wive's tale.

 

[specharka]

I was just coming here to say something about sugar=apple flavours being an old wive's tale.

The more I read HBT, the more aware I am that John Palmer's Bible should be taken as such...frought with errors and written by a superstitious author.

Though it is still a decent book to live (brew) by.