CF Chiller vs. IC Chiller

[Yambor44]

........

Even if you're pumping icewater for added chill speed, it's completely ridiculous to put the wastewater back into the your basin if you haven't "precooled" the wort with plain tap water. The output of the coolant at minute zero should be somewhere near 180F and it would make a lot of sense to collect the first 5 gallons or so for cleanup while replenishing the spent icewater with tap.

Only with an IC. When I use my CFC I pump from the cooler full of ice water thru the CFC and straight back to the cooler. It only takes one pass thru the CFC (the wort) and it's straight into the fermenter and 58 degrees.

I'm not sure after thinking about it that the theory of the entire body of wort sitting at near boiling temps concerns me. For the 10 minutes it takes to pump your wort thru the CFC, its not going to matter. If you boil for 60 minutes it would be like a "70 minute boil". If you brew for 90 and are concerned, shave it back to 80 and adjust your hop additions.

I'm staying with my CFC. Not worried about cold break either.

 

[Bobby_M]

With a CFC, it's even less logical to divert the heated coolant back into the ice basin. That water is like 160F and it is just going to melt the ice faster.

 

[Yambor44]

With a CFC, it's even less logical to divert the heated coolant back into the ice basin. That water is like 160F and it is just going to melt the ice faster.

I have plenty, and it saves a lot of water.

 

[Homercidal]

Only with an IC. When I use my CFC I pump from the cooler full of ice water thru the CFC and straight back to the cooler. It only takes one pass thru the CFC (the wort) and it's straight into the fermenter and 58 degrees.

I'm not sure after thinking about it that the theory of the entire body of wort sitting at near boiling temps concerns me. For the 10 minutes it takes to pump your wort thru the CFC, its not going to matter. If you boil for 60 minutes it would be like a "70 minute boil". If you brew for 90 and are concerned, shave it back to 80 and adjust your hop additions.

I'm staying with my CFC. Not worried about cold break either.

While I agree with you on most points, I think that it is not like additional boil. When the wort it hot but not boiling, it can oxidize and so whatever it does to cause off-flavors.

I suppose one could drain their wort while it is still boiling, but might have to watch for scorching once the volume gets low.

Still, the cooling happens so fast on my CFC that I don't think it's a problem. I wonder how much more oxidation happens while stirring with an IC.

 

[Homercidal]

I have plenty, and it saves a lot of water.

Yeah, I think that it would still work well. I'd like to see it in action though. I don't have a pump, or I'd try it myself.

 

[conpewter]

Since I have a CFC and a pump when I plan on doing really hoppy brews that rely on late additions I'll recirc into the kettle to drop it down to 180* and let the late addition hops steep at that temp before cooling into the carboy. I have not tried this yet but I've seen it several places on the board as a great way to get a lot of hop flavor.

 

[Yambor44]

While I agree with you on most points, I think that it is not like additional boil. When the wort it hot but not boiling, it can oxidize and so whatever it does to cause off-flavors. .

Good point.

Still, the cooling happens so fast on my CFC that I don't think it's a problem. I wonder how much more oxidation happens while stirring with an IC.

Thats what I think.

Lots of interesting points though about both. Good thread.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

IC with whirlpool.

I don't like cold break in by carboy. And I don't like trying to sanitize something I can not see.

 

[frolickingmonkey]

Then there's this design for a CFC, from breweryconstructionguide.com, which attempts to eliminate the "sanitizing something I can not see" issue. Let the circular argument continue!

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

Well, my main issue is with cold break.

 

[Bobby_M]

I've made this argument in many other threads before but ice is much more costly than water. It seems most efficient to use water until it becomes useless, then switch to ice.

 

[Yambor44]

I've made this argument in many other threads before but ice is much more costly than water. It seems most efficient to use water until it becomes useless, then switch to ice.

hmmmmmm.... Probably true.

 

[SumnerH]

Even if you're pumping icewater for added chill speed, it's completely ridiculous to put the wastewater back into the your basin if you haven't "precooled" the wort with plain tap water. The output of the coolant at minute zero should be somewhere near 180F and it would make a lot of sense to collect the first 5 gallons or so for cleanup while replenishing the spent icewater with tap.

So you're going to buy tap hookups and longer hose to use during cooling to save a few cents per brew making ice? That seems penny-wise and pound foolish to me from a money perspective.

Plus, you'd lose some of the main advantages of a recirculating system once you go to this hybrid style. I don't need to mess with hookups, don't have hoses running across the kitchen, and don't lose access to my sink during chilling. It's one, small, self-contained setup that's cheap and easy.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

And some of us don't have sinks. I brew outside and have a problem with water drainage. As in; it goes down the driveway. In the winter it freezes, summer it's finage time.

Otherwise your argument about pre-cooling with water is quite valid.

 

[HomebrewJeff]

Well, hopefully we have made it clear there is no perfect solution, each setup has it's pros and cons, and those are dependant on our own unique situation. What's perfect for some, may not be ideal for others.

Bobby's point is valid in that there is a relationship between the temp of the wort and the chill water, and how quickly it cools. When the wort is 212, having chill water at 65 vs. 45 isn't going to make much difference, unless you have a lot of ice. I don't have any where to store 20 lbs of ice, so I use tap water in the beginning, and then switch to recirculating. In the winter, when there is snow, I have a (nearly) unlimited supply of "ice" so it does make things go much faster.

Also, keep in mind, dumping 180 degree "waste" water back into recirculation, is simply slowing down the process. Instead of pumping 65degree water, maybe it's 72 now. Sure it will cool down, but it's also warming up the rest of the water. If that's all you can do, then that's great. Just realize it's not ideal, but you do what is right for your situation.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'll go as far as making all the concessions for those who don't have ready access to tap water during chilling. At the very least, if it were me, I'd have a 5 gallon bucket of cold tap water on hand and an empty bucket. Start your chilling with the icewater, collect the initial hot 5 gallons in the empty bucket, replenish spent icewater with 5 gallon bucket of cold water, then recirculate. This assumes an IC where the first 5 gallons of wastewater would be up near 200F.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

Run a glycol filled heat exchanger. Doublle up your coils. On one line run one coil in the wort a second in the cold water batch, as well have a fan blowing thourgh a third flat "coil" (like back of a fridge).

 

[sirsloop]

CFCs are a bit more difficult to sanitze and clean- you have to run sanitizer through them before you chill, and some kind of rinse afterward, but they are more efficient. They can chill five gallons a lot faster.

or just pump boiling wort through it...

 

[Homercidal]

or just pump boiling wort through it...

Some sanitizers don't need to be rinsed either.

I'd be very interested in seeing a showdown of chillers with various options simulating conditions for different brewers; CFC vs IC cold tap water, not so cold tap water, icewater pre-chiller, temp changes over time both wort and chill water outflow.

Someone needs to make up a big old spreadsheet with graphs and charts!

Only downside would be the possible end of these very entertaining discussions. Probably not though.

 

[Bobby_M]

I would do it but I don't feel like dumping $50 in fuel to boil all that water. The other issue is that of small variables. If I did it across multiple real batches, you'd have to consider the slight change in tap water temps and wort gravity even if I were trying to keep those things constant.

The other problem is that both my IC and plate chiller are not standard sizes. The IC is 3/8" OD x 30' and the plate is 30-plate at 5" x 18" which is larger than a therminator. Not quite representative of what anyone else would have.

If I could get my hands on a shirron, a 25' CFC, a 25' x 3/8" IC, a 50' x 3/8" IC, and both of those in 1/2", It would make for fun video... Pick a date and show up with them and we'll have a party.

 

[Yambor44]

I would do it but I don't feel like dumping $50 in fuel to boil all that water. The other issue is that of small variables. If I did it across multiple real batches, you'd have to consider the slight change in tap water temps and wort gravity even if I were trying to keep those things constant.

The other problem is that both my IC and plate chiller are not standard sizes. The IC is 3/8" OD x 30' and the plate is 30-plate at 5" x 18" which is larger than a therminator. Not quite representative of what anyone else would have.

If I could get my hands on a shirron, a 25' CFC, a 25' x 3/8" IC, a 50' x 3/8" IC, and both of those in 1/2", It would make for fun video... Pick a date and show up with them and we'll have a party.

Wish you didn't live so far away Bobby. I have a 25' CFC and a 25' x 3/8" IC AND I would help pay for the fuel. Hell I'll still help pay for the fuel if you want to experiment. I enjoy, and learn much, from your videos!

 

[Bobby_M]

I can't find it at the moment, but didn't someone do an IC vs. plate chiller shootout video?

 

[BarryNL]

I understand the difference between the two and their operation, I am just looking for people to convince me one way or the other what I need.

For me the main consideration with every choice in brewing in sanitation - nothing will ruin your beer as fast as the wrong organism. I went the IC route simply because maintaining sanitised conditions is so much easier - you just plonk the IC in 15 mins before flame out and that's it. With a CFC you have to flush it after use, hope you get it cleaned properly and hope there's nothing in there you can't see to infect your beer. Sure, the CFC has a number of benefits over IC but for ease of sanitation the IC wins hands down.

 

[MikeG]

I'm going IC for my first chiller and am ordering it. I'd love it build something but for right now time is an issue. Whenever I go AG and can get a pump Bobby M's video on building an CFC is something I'll use.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

I'm going IC for my first chiller and am ordering it. I'd love it build something but for right now time is an issue. Whenever I go AG and can get a pump Bobby M's video on building an CFC is something I'll use.

If you get a pump you can still use your ic and whirlpool your wort which will cool it much faster. Arguably as fast as a CFC.