Cations/Anions still unbalanced, a problem?

[Snafu]

So I sent off for another lab report as my last one was from 2009, its quite different. I was going to plug the new values into Bru n Water but its still unbalanced, am I doing it wrong? Ive attached screen shot of bru n water.

pH: 7.6
TDS: 125
Elec Cond. 0.21
Cations/Anions, me/L: 1.9/1.6
Na: 22
K: 2
Ca: 13
Mg: 2
Total Hardness, CaCO3: 41
NO3-N: 0.2
SO4-S: 12
Cl: 12
CO3: <1
HCO3: 28
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3: 23
F: 0.91
Fe: <0.01

View attachment bru shot.pdf

 

[a10t2]

It isn't all that unbalanced. As soft as your water is, it could just be rounding errors. Take out 2 ppm Ca and it's balanced, for example.

 

[ajdelange]

It isn't your fault nor really Ward Labs. They measured 1.9/1.6 which isn't that great but for a $25 analysis it isn't bad. To get 1.900/1.900 they would have to measure every ion and measure it to an accuracy of 0.001 mEq/L. Isn't going to happen in the real world.

The problem that this fact of life leads to is that unbalanced water doesn't exist physically. If you try to synthesize a particular water by adding salts, acids.... (which, as they do exist in nature are perfectly balanced) there will be an error in any profile you calculate. For brewing, the errors generally aren't significant.

 

[Snafu]

Cool, so just ignore the unbalanced error. That, I can do! So just fooling around with the new #'s from Ward's. If I was to do my Porter, the estimated pH dropped to 4.9, is there a limit to how much baking soda one would normally add? All the values ended up in the acceptable range but seemed like a lot (12g's) See attached.

On another note I was at my LHBS and was looking at what they had for acids to use in the sparge water, and I saw citric acid, does that work? The lactic acid, isn't that a bacteria we try to avoid? Sorry if thats a dumb question. lol

View attachment EZ porter.pdf

 

[ajdelange]

It has been my experience that normal amounts of dark malts in typically alkaline waters do not produce low mash pH. Other brewers who actually measure mash pH confirm this. But I can't disallow the possibility that someone, somewhere is going to get a mash pH which is too low in a dark beer. So I have changed my rule: never add chalk or bicarbonate to brewing water or mash to "Never add chalk to water nor to mash unless a mash pH measurement with a properly calibrated pH meter indicates that it is necessary."

Lactic acid is something we try to avoid (i.e. by preventing contamination with lactobacilli) in general but sometimes we want it. Examples: sour creme, creme frais, sauerkraut, kimshe, sourdough bread/pizza, Berliner Weiße, lambic and the sauermalz/sauergut that it is used in most lager brewing in Europe for mash pH control. Lactic acid actually tastes pretty good (IMO) but when it's out of place it's out of place.

Citric acid used to be a staple of home brewing. Look back at some of the early homebrewing books that came out of the UK. Almost all the recipes called for some. I find it interesting that in those days it was recognized that acid was needed and it is only now that a few vox clamantis types are beginning to get this notion back in front of homebrewers. So yes, citric acid should work. The reason I think it's not used more is because it tastes, well, citrusy. I'll leave out unkind remarks about the beers some of you American hops lovers produce.

 

[Snafu]

I'll leave out unkind remarks about the beers some of you American hops lovers produce.

Dude, that actually made me laugh out loud! Not a big fan of grapefruit beer eh?

What type of acid (avail at most LHBS) would work well to reduce pH in sparge water that will not add any kind of flavor? Does it matter that I fly sparge? I wouldn't think so, but I'm gonna ask anyway.

Lastly, I've been using the EZ spreadsheet because, well, its EZ. But, I'm trying to use Bru n Water because I think its more in-depth. Shouldn't they both be telling me the same thing? As far as quantities to add? I only ask because I'm getting very different quantities.

 

[Kaiser]

If you have unbalanced water it will be electrostatically charged and attract cat hair

Lastly, I've been using the EZ spreadsheet because, well, its EZ. But, I'm trying to use Bru n Water because I think its more in-depth. Shouldn't they both be telling me the same thing? As far as quantities to add? I only ask because I'm getting very different quantities.

brewing water chemistry spreadsheets should come up with about the same values for salt additions and ion profile because that aspect of water chemistry is very well understood and there is little disagreement on the underlying models and math.

The differences show up in pH prediction. EZ water has a pH prediction that is based on my research while Martin's spreadsheet only used some data but not all of the pH estimation work. When it comes to spreadsheets, I trust mine since the pH prediction that I'm using there tracks very well with my own measurements. Keep in mind that predicting the pH from the beer's color (SRM) and % of color from roasted malts is not that much different than predicting it from a detailed grain bill since the algorithms that use the latter use the malt's color to predict the acidity.

Kai

 

[Snafu]

I only ask because I'm getting very different quantities.

I found the problem, when I downloaded Bru n water it was already partially filled out, and on the water adjustment sheet the "lactic acid" field at the bottom had a value already filled in, that was screwing everything up. I noticed the water report input screen was partially filled in but that was all I noticed. Reset everything to zero folks, just sayin.

Kai, now that I've got EZ & Bru n water figured out, I'm going to take yours for a test drive, I'm sure I'll have questions, esp where you have % of roasted grains...lol

 

[ajdelange]

What type of acid (avail at most LHBS) would work well to reduce pH in sparge water that will not add any kind of flavor?

I guess the most flavor neutral would be phosphoric. I can't honestly say I recall seeing it at the LHBS recently but they certainly used to sell it. Lactic is probably the most readily available and if your water isn't too alkaline you shouldn't require so much that it has a noticeable effect. If your water is alkaline enough that it does then dilute it well down with RO water.

Does it matter that I fly sparge? I wouldn't think so, but I'm gonna ask anyway.

Yes, probably. In fly sparging you will be running water through the grains after most of the extract has been washed away and there is little buffering. In batch sparging to take what you can get in single bolus. You leave some extract behind but the mash is never exposed to water without mash to dilute it.

Lastly, I've been using the EZ spreadsheet because, well, its EZ. But, I'm trying to use Bru n Water because I think its more in-depth. Shouldn't they both be telling me the same thing? As far as quantities to add? I only ask because I'm getting very different quantities.

The gentlemen that develop the spreadsheets are implementing mathematical models of the real world. The spreadsheets are not mirrors of truth. They are models which we hope reflect the truth reasonably well. Graduate courses are taught on modeling and there are many, many aspects to this. Some things are easier to model (how the temperature of a volume of water changes when hot water is added to it) than others (climate change, what goes on in a mash tun). One model may shine for one kind of beers and another for a different kind. That's why I say be informed by the models but guided by pH measurement.

 

[Snafu]

duly noted & well said!, I bought a pH meter prior to my last brew and had my mash at 5.38, thankfully I was sneaking up on it and didn't just add all the CACl2 it was calling for. The only issue I was having was getting the temp down on the mash for the pH reading while I was still trying to monitor the mash. By the time I was getting my first reading I was already 15 mins into the mash. So I can see where experience will be the best teacher.