Cascade - Where's the grapefruit?

[thefost]

I tried making a Sierra Nevada clone (recipe included below) about a month ago and finally got around to doing a side by side comparison with the real deal. It was immediately apparent that my beer, while good, was way off. First off, the real sierra had a crispness mine was missing, so I added some gypsum and that instantly fixed that problem.

The bigger problem was the sweet, fruity, grapefruitish flavor and aroma that I was getting from the real sierra nevada that I just wasn't getting at all from my clone. Since sierra uses only cascade for late hops, I'm assuming that this must be coming from the cascade.

So the question is, why I am I not getting any cascade fruitiness at all from my beer?

My technique: All my hops were thrown in a stainless hop spider. At flameout I added the final hops and immediately dropped the temp to 170 degrees. I then whirlpooled for 20 minutes at 170 degrees before cooling with my CFC.

So what the heck is it that I'm doing wrong? I tried dry hopping the beer with cascade, but that only gave it a more floral smell, not sweet and fruity. I'm tempted to experiment with hop teas but first was hoping to get some advice.



Here's the 5.5 gal recipe for reference:

2-Row Malt United States 11.50 lb Mashed
Crystal 60 United States 1.00 lb Mashed

Magnum Germany 0.5 oz Pellet Boil 60 min 21.0
Perle United States 0.5 oz Pellet Boil 30 min 9.3
Cascade United States 1.0 oz Pellet Boil 10 min 7.7
Cascade United States 2.0 oz Pellet Boil 0 min 1.5

Safale American US-05

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Not all harvests's or crops of Cascade are the same?

My Cascade pale i did with my home grown hops has crazy citrus and fruitiness.

My guess is that Sierra sources their hops from the same farmers. We already know large breweries like them get preferential treatment, they are the ones that get first dibs on harvest's with their hop contracts...we(the Homebrewers) get the crap thats left over they didnt want...not that its bad but they are getting the best of the best.

 

[gr8shandini]

Silly question, but if you're looking for the typical Cascade flavor, why are you using Perle for your flavoring hops? I'd try a batch using Cascade for everything and see what you get.

 

[thefost]

Silly question, but if you're looking for the typical Cascade flavor, why are you using Perle for your flavoring hops? I'd try a batch using Cascade for everything and see what you get.

Because supposedly that's what Sierra Nevada does. This recipe had some input from the Sierra brewmaster (found on different forum) and should theoretically be very close to the actual sierra recipe.

 

[thefost]

Not all harvests's or crops of Cascade are the same?

My Cascade pale i did with my home grown hops has crazy citrus and fruitiness.

My guess is that Sierra sources their hops from the same farmers. We already know large breweries like them get preferential treatment, they are the ones that get first dibs on harvest's with their hop contracts...we(the Homebrewers) get the crap thats left over they didnt want...not that its bad but they are getting the best of the best.

I'm concerned that might be the case that I just have crappy hops. I want that crazy citrus and fruitiness, cuz mine is completely missing. Maybe I need to grow my own hops =)

Still, I'd expect at least some fruitiness from my cascade, even if it is bad, cuz I'm not getting any.

 

[WildGingerBrewing]

I tried making a Sierra Nevada clone (recipe included below) about a month ago and finally got around to doing a side by side comparison with the real deal. It was immediately apparent that my beer, while good, was way off. First off, the real sierra had a crispness mine was missing, so I added some gypsum and that instantly fixed that problem.

Can you explain this? You added gypsum where? To the keg? When? After brewing obviously? How much? And adding the gypsum made the finished beer "crisper"?

 

[bob1852]

pellet or whole cone hops?

SN uses whole cone.

Also, there's more to just their water than adding gypsum. They reportedly treat all of their water with phosphoric acide to get to their ideal mash pH and neutralize pretty much all alkalinity.

They likely target a mash pH of ~5.3 as well.

Also, try chilling right after your 0 minute hop addition. I think a 20 minute whirlpool at ~170 is too long.

Good luck!

 

[opiate82]

The other thing to consider is how the hops are handled and stored, not only by you but your supplier. One of the things that led me to buy in bulk directly from the farms was I wasn't happy with the way my LHBS handled their hops, and I couldn't be sure as to how the online vendors were handling them.

 

[gr8shandini]

Because supposedly that's what Sierra Nevada does. This recipe had some input from the Sierra brewmaster (found on different forum) and should theoretically be very close to the actual sierra recipe.

I didn't know that. I had always heard that it was all Cascade save for the bittering.

In that case, I second the call on the whole hops.

 

[bob1852]

I didn't know that. I had always heard that it was all Cascade save for the bittering.

In that case, I second the call on the whole hops.

Straight from their website...

Ingredients
Yeast - Ale yeast
Bittering Hops - Magnum, Perle
Finishing Hops - Cascade
Malts - Two-row Pale, Caramel

Most recipes I've call for a very similar hop schedule as the OP's...

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

My technique: All my hops were thrown in a stainless hop spider. At flameout I added the final hops and immediately dropped the temp to 170 degrees. I then whirlpooled for 20 minutes at 170 degrees before cooling with my CFC.

If your final hops went in at 0 minutes and THEN you whirlpooled at 170, what hops did you add at 170?

If you added none, your 20 minute whirlpool was nearly useless.

Next time you brew add a small portion of 0 min hops at flameout, cool to 160, THEN add whirlpool hops. For a hop like cascade, 3oz per 5 gallons should give you some juiciness.

When you add hops near boiling the volatile oils and flavor compounds evaporate very quickly. By just long soaking them in very warm wort you extract the compounds without driving most of them off with the steam.

 

[thefost]

Thanks everyone for some great feedback!

Can you explain this? You added gypsum where? To the keg? When? After brewing obviously? How much? And adding the gypsum made the finished beer "crisper"?

Taking a look at the water profile I made (I started from RO water and then added salts) I had a about 109ppm sulfate and 82ppm choloride. According to the EZ water spreadsheet this "may enhance bitterness" but looking at other water profiles I realized my chloride/sulfate ratio was probably too high. This forum taught me I could add some gypsum (dissolved in a little water) directly into my finished beer to increase the sulfates to around 300ppm, and doing so really brought out the hops. It instantly gave the beer that crisp, clean pale ale taste. Made my beer much more sierra like, although I'm thinking that next time I need to reduce the chloride even more.

 

[thefost]

The other thing to consider is how the hops are handled and stored, not only by you but your supplier. One of the things that led me to buy in bulk directly from the farms was I wasn't happy with the way my LHBS handled their hops, and I couldn't be sure as to how the online vendors were handling them.

I purchased my hops in bulk online. I had been storing them in vacuum sealed mason jars in the freezer, but they would occasionally get warm if I forgot to put them back right away. I'm not willing to try using whats left of my cascade, so I threw it out and got a pound of pellets from Farmhouse. I'm now flushing the mason jar with co2 everytime and immediately sealing them and putting them back in the freezer after use. I am now hop paranoid =]

 

[thefost]

If your final hops went in at 0 minutes and THEN you whirlpooled at 170, what hops did you add at 170?

If you added none, your 20 minute whirlpool was nearly useless.

Next time you brew add a small portion of 0 min hops at flameout, cool to 160, THEN add whirlpool hops. For a hop like cascade, 3oz per 5 gallons should give you some juiciness.

When you add hops near boiling the volatile oils and flavor compounds evaporate very quickly. By just long soaking them in very warm wort you extract the compounds without driving most of them off with the steam.

I added the hops at flameout, then chilled to 170 with my CFC in the span of about 3-5 minutes.

If I understand this, adding the hops once the wort hit 170 would increase aroma, while what I did would increase hop flavor, correct?

 

[thefost]

pellet or whole cone hops?

SN uses whole cone.

Also, there's more to just their water than adding gypsum. They reportedly treat all of their water with phosphoric acide to get to their ideal mash pH and neutralize pretty much all alkalinity.

They likely target a mash pH of ~5.3 as well.

Also, try chilling right after your 0 minute hop addition. I think a 20 minute whirlpool at ~170 is too long.

Good luck!

I used pellets, so that may be a factor.

My mash pH was 5.5, is that close enough? Does an even lower pH bring out the hops?

I've read that more brewries are doing longer whirlpools, not shorter, in order to extract all the oils. What would be the downside of the 20 minute whirlpool?

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

I added the hops at flameout, then chilled to 170 with my CFC in the span of about 3-5 minutes.

If I understand this, adding the hops once the wort hit 170 would increase aroma, while what I did would increase hop flavor, correct?

70% to 75% of what you taste is actually smell.

Your nose and your tastebuds work hand in hand. Whirlpool hop additions do not contribute much to your perceived bitterness, but they will account for a majority or your "taste".

 

[opiate82]

Whirlpool hop additions do not contribute much to your perceived bitterness, but they will account for a majority or your "taste".

This isn't exactly true. Mitch Steele was on Basic Brewing radio saying that if you take 2 beers with identical, lab measured IBUs, but one has much more hop aroma and flavor than the other, the one with more hop aroma and flavor will almost always be ranked as much more bitter in tasting panels.

 

[zwiller]

I have done IPAs with only whirlpool hops and they definitely contribute bitterness. I think fourseasonangler has got it, use more hops and do the whirlpool. The tiny 1oz addition as seen in recipes doesn't cut it.

Although SN acidifies all brewing water to a pH of 5.5 I tried dropping the pH and it doesn't really bring out the hops. It does add a crisp flavor and that is good for SNPA but is not the grapefruit solution.

 

[trickery]

Why not try citra hops to get that grapefruit flavor? I dont find sierra navada pale all that citrisy...

 

[IL1kebeer]

My guess is that Sierra sources their hops from the same farmers. We already know large breweries like them get preferential treatment, they are the ones that get first dibs on harvest's with their hop contracts...we(the Homebrewers) get the crap thats left over they didnt want...not that its bad but they are getting the best of the best.

+1 +1 +1 +100000000

Even small microbreweries get the crap left overs. The big guys (Sierra Nevada, Boston Beer, Stone, etc...) get first dibs and everyone else fights for the scraps. Don't fool yourself: Homebrewers are at the bottom of the barrel on this one. This also was recently discussed on a Brewstrong episode.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

+1 +1 +1 +100000000

Even small microbreweries get the crap left overs. The big guys (Sierra Nevada, Boston Beer, Stone, etc...) get first dibs and everyone else fights for the scraps. Don't fool yourself: Homebrewers are at the bottom of the barrel on this one. This also was recently discussed on a Brewstrong episode.

That's where I got it from, Jamil made it pretty clear even him running a Micro at Heretic he gets the crap hops after the Sam Adam's and AB get their pick.

 

[Exportjo]

I highly doubt you are going to be able to duplicate their recipe to the dot. As stated earlier little guys get the left overs...and home brewers get the scraps...I challenge you to find quality fresh hops without knowing a hop grower. But if you do...grab some pellet hops and some fresh hops, rub them in your hands and give them a whiff. NOTHING compares to fresh hops, and when it comes to fresh hops Sierra Nevada is King.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[thefost]

Man, it is really disheartening to know that we are getting such inferior hops. I'm going to have to do some experimentation with my new pellet hops and some try to find some good fresh whole hops and do a comparison.

I highly doubt you are going to be able to duplicate their recipe to the dot.
Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

Very true, but that is not going to stop me from trying
I am now on a mission to duplicate sierra perfectly! I'm going to make a couple 1 gallon batches and see if I can perfect both my techniques and this recipe.

 

[bob1852]

Very true, but that is not going to stop me from trying
I am now on a mission to duplicate sierra perfectly! I'm going to make a couple 1 gallon batches and see if I can perfect both my techniques and this recipe.

I've been on that quest too...

I've come very close, but just can't get there. I still think it's water. I tried to get a discussion going here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/sierra-nevada-water-profile-question-450887/

But, other than great info (as usual) from Martin and AJ, it didn't get much discussion (except to further reduce mash pH)...