Carbonation

[Gytaryst]

I never know which thread to post in.

I've come to the conclusion that I don't understand carbonation. I started out bottling and using priming sugar to bottle condition, then switched over to kegging and force carbonating. When I bottled I seemed to always have issues with consistency. One bottle would be carbed just right, the next was over carbed, and the next was under carbed. I'm sure there are a kerzillion ways to resolve that - I switched to kegging and quit worrying about it.

When I keg I turn the gauge on my CO2 up to 30 for 2 days. Then I back it down to somewhere between 11 and 15 for serving. I never have issues with it. The head looks good and (out of the keg) it always tastes well carbonated.

Recently I decided to try bottling a few from the keg, mostly because I've never done it and I wanted to see how it worked. I watched a youtube video from one of the Brew Dude guys where he releases all the pressure on the keg. Then he adds about a 10" piece of tubing to a picnic tap, puts it in the bottle, and slowly increases the CO2 pressure until it is just flowing. When it gets to the top of the bottle he quickly puts a cap on it and (in theory) caps on foam.

I've tried this twice. The first time My keg had been sitting with the gauge at 11 for several weeks. I bottled 3 bottles, (plus the 1/2 a bottle or so of beer all over the counter, and the keg, and the floor). I let the bottles sit in the fridge for a day. When I cracked them open there was almost no hiss and no head. As close to flat as you can get without actually being flat.

So I cranked the pressure up on the keg to 15 and let it sit a week, then repeated the youtube Brew Dude process. The same results. 3 beers bottled plus the 12 ounces of beer wasted that drips, pours and spouts everywhere. And when they're later opened - No hiss, no head, no carbonation.

When I draw a beer off the keg after doing this it's kind of the same thing, little to no head or carbonation.

My understanding was that after the CO2 has been absorbed into the beer over a few weeks the beer shouldn't go flat just because I shut the CO2 valve off? Unless there is a leak. But if there was a leak my CO2 tank would be empty???

 

[RPh_Guy]

Seems to indicate that your caps are leaking.

 

[mongoose33]

I bottle almost exclusively off the taps of my keezer, using a growler-filler. Part of the process of successfully bottling beer and retaining carbonation is:

1. I chill the bottles. When beer that's carbed warms, it gives up CO2 as foam. A warm bottle can contribute to this.

2. I use a vinator with chilled sanitizer in it to sanitize the bottles. I dip the bottle mouth into the chilled sanitizer, and 2 or 3 squirts of sanitizer go up inside the bottle. I let it drain a bit--once I get a rhythm going I pull a bottle off the vinator and do another one right away, and it is drained by the time I need it, then bottle. I'm not warming up the bottle with warm sanitizer. Friend of mine says I should make up sanitizer ice cubes for this....he's not wrong.

3. I chill the faucet and growler-filler. Typically I'll draw off 8-10 ounces of beer which chills all the apparatus. I figure that should be my payment for bottling, i.e., I drink that beer.

4. I start the growler-filler at the bottom of the bottle and draw it up as the bottle fills. I want about an inch, maybe 1.5" of foam in the neck of the bottle so I can, indeed, cap on foam.

5. I don't fill a bunch of bottles then cap; I cap each one as it is filled.

Here's a video showing how I do that:



@RPh_Guy hit on something too--and that might explain the uneven results you had when bottle conditioning. That is whether you're properly capping or not. That rarely happens with me, but when it does, almost always I get a foam leak out of the top and down the side of the bottle, so it's apparent.

I use a desktop capper usually, occasionally use a wing capper.

 

[isomerization]

OP said his draft pours are flat too, so I don’t think it’s the bottle cap portion.

 

[RPh_Guy]

OP said his draft pours are flat too, so I don’t think it’s the bottle cap portion.

?

The head looks good and (out of the keg) it always tastes well carbonated.

 

[isomerization]

When I draw a beer off the keg after doing this it's kind of the same thing, little to no head or carbonation.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks, missed that.

 

[balrog]

Temperature?
I can only bottle from keg if it's at about 30°F, slowly, silicone tube to bottom of bottle, pour a glass first to chill the line, the picnic tap, the silicone tubing. THen RINSE EACH BOTTLE with water or starsan to be wet. THEN MAKE SURE BOTTLES ARE 30°F also.

Then it works great.

 

[isomerization]

Thanks, missed that.

I should have been more clear, but I don’t have any ideas to help right now, but wanted to highlight that comment for those that did.

Could his keg be almost empty?

 

[RPh_Guy]

If the beer is fully carbonated when it goes into the bottles, and then not carbonated later, then the caps leak.

If the kegged beer is carbonated and then the CO2 valve is closed, and the beer is flat later, then the keg leaks.

Sounds like just a bunch of leaks. Carbonation (dissolved CO2) stays in a closed vessel.

Gotta use muscles when capping.
Submerge the keg and various components to test for leaks. There are some good threads here on how to do that.

Right?

 

[balrog]

Agreed that insidious, small leaks are ... well ... insidious. Gotta find them. I get plenty of strange looks from the fam when I submerge all manner of gear in a filled bathtub. Luckily, they seem to have adapted to my strange being the new normal.