carbonation question......

[Dude]

I have some bottles of my stout that are conditioning right now, but I just got my kegerator pretty much set up to go....I was wondering if I could siphon or dump (without aerating too much) some of the bottled stout into a keg and force carbonate? I'm dying to try it and I'd like to show it off Saturday night when some friends come over........
Input?

 

[Dark_Ale]

I have some bottles of my stout that are conditioning right now, but I just got my kegerator pretty much set up to go....I was wondering if I could siphon or dump (without aerating too much) some of the bottled stout into a keg and force carbonate? I'm dying to try it and I'd like to show it off Saturday night when some friends come over........
Input?

I bottled some to early one time, and after a week poped the tops and poured them back into my fermenter with some bru vigor. It finished fermenting and then I bottled it again. No contaminations problems or nothing. I dont see where it would hurt anything, but how long have they been conditioning?

 

[Dude]

I bottled some to early one time, and after a week poped the tops and poured them back into my fermenter with some bru vigor. It finished fermenting and then I bottled it again. No contaminations problems or nothing. I dont see where it would hurt anything, but how long have they been conditioning?

Cool...okay....
It's been bottled for about 10 days. I tried one 2 nights ago and it was hardly carbonated.

 

[Janx]

Shouldn't be a big deal...such a PIT to have gone to all that trouble to bottle only to dump em in a keg.

You need to get it in the keg SOON for tomorrow night. You need to get it chilled and under high pressure. I usually like to let it sit several days before pouring to condition right. It's hard to get the conditioning right so quickly. Note that once it's chilled and under pressure, you can shake the keg to accelerate the carbonating process.

 

[DeRoux's Broux]

I have some bottles of my stout that are conditioning right now, but I just got my kegerator pretty much set up to go....I was wondering if I could siphon or dump (without aerating too much) some of the bottled stout into a keg and force carbonate? I'm dying to try it and I'd like to show it off Saturday night when some friends come over........
Input?

like janx said, make sure it's cold. i rack from my secondary into my keg, then put it in my keg fridge for 2-3 days before i force carobonate. colder beer will absorb the co2 much better. take it out of the fridge and "pop" c02 on top to seat the lid (on the "in" post). then, attach the gas to the "out" post of your keg (or down tube post) and crank up your c02 pressure to about 35-40 psi. then start rocking the keg back and forth to work the co2 up through the beer. you'll hear it hissing through the keg. after about 8-10 minutes it should have absorbed about all that it can (when the hissing stops). stop rocking, unhook co2 and put back in the fridge for 24 hrs. after 24 hours, vent the pressure from the "in tube", attach the c02 to the in post, and adjust to about 14 psi for serving. the first couple of pints may be a little cloudy. after that, your good as gold. remember, different styles have different carbonation levels. like stout: very low, wheat: higher co2.
hope this helps.
DeRoux's Broux

 

[Dude]

Thanks guys...
Okay, now that I have beer in the keg and its carbonated--what do I have to do to maintain a balance of carbonation--not too much but enough? Do I keep CO running on it all the time?
Say my stout that is in there now, do I keep C02 at a low pressure (like what 3-5 psi?) all the time, or only when I'm dispensing beer?

I'm sure this kegging stuff will save me time in the future but its confusing right now. I'll pick it up I hope.....

 

[DeRoux's Broux]

Thanks guys...
Okay, now that I have beer in the keg and its carbonated--what do I have to do to maintain a balance of carbonation--not too much but enough? Do I keep CO running on it all the time?
Say my stout that is in there now, do I keep C02 at a low pressure (like what 3-5 psi?) all the time, or only when I'm dispensing beer?

I'm sure this kegging stuff will save me time in the future but its confusing right now. I'll pick it up I hope.....

nah, piece of cake. i keep my regulator at about 14 psi. i run two kegs of one co2 bottle, so unless i get a regulator for each keg, i have to keep the same psi for both kegs, regardless of style i'm serving.
i keep my co2 bottle on all the time. as long as the seal is good on the keg, you won't be losing co2 to the atmosphere. go to www.defalcos.com. it's my local HBS and they have a "draught beer primer" section on the web page. it's on the menu bar down the left side of the page (draft beer). maybe it will help answer some of your questions?

DeRoux's Broux

 

[Janx]

FWIW, 14PSI sounds really high for dispensing to me. Do you have your beer pushing up a long ways or through a long hose, DeRoux? Mine has to rise about 4 or 5 feet to my taps and I keep it at about 8 PSI. Tap systems are tricky beasts, so everyone's will be different. After carbonating, you want just enought pressure to push your beer out at a reasonable rate. Adjust to your setup. Then leave the gas at that pressure from there on out. Then your beer will stay carbonated. Sometimes, if a keg lasts a long time it will overcarbonate by absorbing CO2 while it's sitting there. The only recourse there is to drink it faster or push with a less soluble gas like Nitrogen. Cheers!

 

[Dude]

I'm still lost on this--here's why:

I believe my beer is carbonated enough. It has way more bubbles in it than my bottles did, so that's what I'm basing it on. It tastes fine. IMHO it could be fizzier but its okay where it's at. My problem is I've tried dispensing at different pressures and there is absolutely no foam coming out. The best headspace I can get on a pint is about 1/4-1/2 inch, very little.
If I bump up the pressure to around 10psi, it comes out too fast, but that is the only time I get foam. With it set at 5 psi, it trickles out and hardly any foam. Inside of glass has plenty of bubbles though.
I knew there was going to be some trial and error with this but my 5 gal keg is going to be kaput before I even get a good glass out of it.

I know my keg is holding pressure, I tested it.
Any thoughts?

 

[NUCC98]

I'm still lost on this--here's why:

I believe my beer is carbonated enough. It has way more bubbles in it than my bottles did, so that's what I'm basing it on. It tastes fine. IMHO it could be fizzier but its okay where it's at. My problem is I've tried dispensing at different pressures and there is absolutely no foam coming out. The best headspace I can get on a pint is about 1/4-1/2 inch, very little.
If I bump up the pressure to around 10psi, it comes out too fast, but that is the only time I get foam. With it set at 5 psi, it trickles out and hardly any foam. Inside of glass has plenty of bubbles though.
I knew there was going to be some trial and error with this but my 5 gal keg is going to be kaput before I even get a good glass out of it.

I know my keg is holding pressure, I tested it.
Any thoughts?

I read this yesterday.......just a thought:

http://***********/feature/386.html

 

[DeRoux's Broux]

nope, my lines are about 4.5 feet too. but, i run two kegs off one bottle (if that makes a difference) and i keep my bottle in the fridge. maybe the cooled gas needs a little more to push the beer? it comes out of the tap at a good rate. not to fast, not to slow. even my HBS recommends 10-15 psi for dispensing. some of it has to do with the size of the ID of the line too. i think mine are 3/8 ID?

DeRoux's Broux

 

[Janx]

Yeah, who knows. Diameter of line, temp, two kegs on one bottle (I have 2 on my beer gas tank and one on my CO2 tank). It all varies greatly from situation to situation. Setting up beer lines in a commercial pub can be a real nightmare.

 

[Dude]

Would it be feasible to get commercially kegged beer and "transfer" it to corny kegs? I'd like to have some people over to my place and I want to use the kegerator but the stout that is in there now won't go over well with most. I was thinking it would be fairly easy to use a jumper from commercial keg to corny keg. Would this work?

 

[bikebryan]

FWIW, 14PSI sounds really high for dispensing to me. Do you have your beer pushing up a long ways or through a long hose, DeRoux? Mine has to rise about 4 or 5 feet to my taps and I keep it at about 8 PSI. Tap systems are tricky beasts, so everyone's will be different. After carbonating, you want just enought pressure to push your beer out at a reasonable rate. Adjust to your setup. Then leave the gas at that pressure from there on out. Then your beer will stay carbonated. Sometimes, if a keg lasts a long time it will overcarbonate by absorbing CO2 while it's sitting there. The only recourse there is to drink it faster or push with a less soluble gas like Nitrogen. Cheers!

You are right that everybody's setup will be different, but 14 PSI sounds close to being correct depending on the volumes of CO2 he wants, and what the temp of the beer is. Your 8 PSI may also be correct, depending on the pressure resitriction of your 4 to 5 feet of tubing and restriction at the tap.

If you are serving at 8 PSI, sooner or later your carbonation will drop to that level and your beer will be flatter than you may want.

The only true recourse is to carbonate and serve at the same pressure. Then your carbonatin will never vary and you will have consistently served beer. Force carbonation at high pressure, then dialing it down, usually results in over or under carbonation. Patience, just like sanitation, is one of the key aspects. You may have to wait seven days using the one pressure for carbonating/serving method, but the beer will be better for it.

 

[Janx]

You know, bryan, I agree, even though I have debated you on this point in other threads. It really is best to just be patient and carbonate it over a period of days. You get finer bubbles and a better moutfeel.

The same thing can be achieved by overpressuring, etc. But as you point out, you'll end up chasing your tail a bit. Over then under before you finally get it right.

You can still shake a keg to speed the absorbtion of CO2 along, even if you use a lower pressure.

And as far as the beer losing CO2 while being served at 8 PSI...I haven't noticed it at all...I'm not really well versed in draught science (there's a lot to learn), but I'm no stranger to it either, and it seems to me that if you keep the beer really cold, then the CO2 should not come out of solution. That's been my anecdotal experience, anyway.

Cheers!

 

[bikebryan]

You know, bryan, I agree, even though I have debated you on this point in other threads. It really is best to just be patient and carbonate it over a period of days. You get finer bubbles and a better moutfeel.

The same thing can be achieved by overpressuring, etc. But as you point out, you'll end up chasing your tail a bit. Over then under before you finally get it right.

You can still shake a keg to speed the absorbtion of CO2 along, even if you use a lower pressure.

And as far as the beer losing CO2 while being served at 8 PSI...I haven't noticed it at all...I'm not really well versed in draught science (there's a lot to learn), but I'm no stranger to it either, and it seems to me that if you keep the beer really cold, then the CO2 should not come out of solution. That's been my anecdotal experience, anyway.

Cheers!

Gas pressure seeks equilibrium. That's a fact of physics. If you carbonated at 30 PSI, began venting, then dialed down to 8 psi to serve, then eventually gas is going to dissolve out of the solution and back into the headspace.

However, it may take so long that you have already consumed all the "solution" before it becomes problematic.

 

[DeRoux's Broux]

However, it may take so long that you have already consumed all the "solution" before it becomes problematic. [/QUOTE]

it does make sense, but my beer seems to go quick enough to not notice a significant difference. i prefer "natural" carbonation, but unless i keep a stock pile of beer, i go with the "force". i keep my keg fridge set as low as it will go, and have adjusted my psi to about 10 - 14.

thanks for the info guy's.

Cheers!
DeRoux's Broux

 

[mrkeeg]

> If I bump up the pressure to around 10psi, it comes out too fast, but that is the only time I get foam. With it set at 5 psi, it trickles out and hardly any foam. Inside of glass has plenty of bubbles though.

Too fast? How can you pour beer too fast? Beer flowing too slowly sounds like more of an emergency to me!

Anyway... funny you're having that trouble, cause I'm experiencing the opposite... I get at least 50% foam on a pint (it is awesome foam though!). I'm new to this, so I guess I'll just keep experimenting. I might drink this whole keg by myself before I get it sussed though! (that wouldn't be so unpleasant...)

I'm suspecting that one of my troubles may be storing the keg a bit warm, about 15 C (if you live in the world... 60F if you are in the states).

Well, good luck!
Keegan

 

[bikebryan]

> If I bump up the pressure to around 10psi, it comes out too fast, but that is the only time I get foam. With it set at 5 psi, it trickles out and hardly any foam. Inside of glass has plenty of bubbles though.

Too fast? How can you pour beer too fast? Beer flowing too slowly sounds like more of an emergency to me!

Anyway... funny you're having that trouble, cause I'm experiencing the opposite... I get at least 50% foam on a pint (it is awesome foam though!). I'm new to this, so I guess I'll just keep experimenting. I might drink this whole keg by myself before I get it sussed though! (that wouldn't be so unpleasant...)

I'm suspecting that one of my troubles may be storing the keg a bit warm, about 15 C (if you live in the world... 60F if you are in the states).

Well, good luck!
Keegan

CO2 will have more trouble staying dissolved in a warm solution, 'tis true. Other problems with foaming are usually traced back to two common mistakes: overcarbonation (usually due to the 30PSI and shake method, because I want my beer NOW) or improper serving line length. You need to match the length of your serving line pressure restriction per foot to the pressure in your keg. If that is out of balance you end up with a glass of foam or a keg that just won't pour.

 

[mrkeeg]

Thanks Bryan,
I was thinking along some of the same lines .. my beer is stored warmish but cools as it travels through the line (not ideal setup I know, but it's what I have). To keep it carbonated at this higher temp, I keep it near 20psi. It seems to come out at a resonable rate, and a good carbonation level with this setup, but I wondered if I should patch it through a longer line to balance the higher pressure in the keg. From what I understand though, this would lower the pouring speed :-( ?

Ah well, I guess I'd best pour a few pints to test it out... pity...

Keegan

 

[bikebryan]

Thanks Bryan,
I was thinking along some of the same lines .. my beer is stored warmish but cools as it travels through the line (not ideal setup I know, but it's what I have). To keep it carbonated at this higher temp, I keep it near 20psi. It seems to come out at a resonable rate, and a good carbonation level with this setup, but I wondered if I should patch it through a longer line to balance the higher pressure in the keg. From what I understand though, this would lower the pouring speed :-( ?

Ah well, I guess I'd best pour a few pints to test it out... pity...

Keegan

I keep my ales around 12 PSI for carbonation and serving. Based on that, I've found a line lenght of about 10 feet is appropriate. You need to find out what the pressure restriction per foot of your serving line is, then match that to what the pressure is in your keg. That will certainly help reduce foaming while allowing a good pour rate.