Carbonation question - is this normal or time to worry?

[cbg96]

Alrighty, so...

I've waited patiently on my first batch for a little over two weeks now. I used Karo corn syrup, 3/4 cup dissolved into just-prior-to-boiling water which was then cooled down to about 80 or 70 degrees. I then racked onto this and stirred it up being careful to both mix thoroughly but not aerate. Then into the bottles and capping. Bottles sat in a closed and unplugged stand up freezer. Nice and dark, but temp was probably in the 60's.

I decided to test last night and cracked one open. The flavor is a winner (even SWMBO liked it) so that's good. I am concerned about level of carbonation. There was some head, but not very much - more a small rim of form around the glass at the top of the liquid level than a head. There were also some small bubbles coming up, but again not very much and about halfway through test beer they had pretty much petered out.

1) Is this normal?

2) Is this a symptom or indicator of things being undercarbed?

3) Suggested fixes if things are undercarbed?

4) I saw the suggestion in the "Flat!" thread about moving to a warmer place and shaking once or twice a day for a week. Is this a viable option?

Thanks all

 

[Tenchiro]

2 weeks probably isn't long enough to fully carb. I have had batches get there in a week and others take four. How did it feel in your mouth, was it flat feeling?

Give it another week and try again. And so on and so forth, until it is right. You can keep it in a warmer area as well, but generally I just let it sit longer.

 

[Revvy]

2 weeks probably isn't long enough to fully carb. I have had batches get there in a week and others take four. How did it feel in your mouth, was it flat feeling?

Give it another week and try again. And so on and so forth, until it is right. You can keep it in a warmer area as well, but generally I just let it sit longer.

What he said!!!!

Read this....

http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/Revvy/Of_Patience_and_Bottle_Conditioning/

 

[shecky]

Revvy, I am so disappointed in you. OK, you linked to the blog. Good one there. But you stayed away from the word "worry" in the thread. Feeling a bit tired today, are we?

To the OP, there is never a time to worry. Remember, RDWHAHB.

 

[Yooper]

I don't know how much actual fermentable sugar is in Kayo syrup. How did you decide how much to use?

 

[Revvy]

Revvy, I am so disappointed in you. OK, you linked to the blog. Good one there. But you stayed away from the word "worry" in the thread. Feeling a bit tired today, are we?

To the OP, there is never a time to worry. Remember, RDWHAHB.

You just wanna see that hot chick w/ gun says RDWHAHB pic....

Can't use it again til I put electrical tape on the nippleage....

 

[shecky]

You just wanna see that hot chick w/ gun says RDWHAHB pic....

Can't use it again til I put electrical tape on the nippleage....

Was it that transparent?

 

[cbg96]

Little followup:

1) With the Karo syrup, my internet research told me dextrose is basically corn syrup, and Karo is corn syrup. That's why I used it - bought it at the grocery store instead of having to head for the LHBS where the prices are unfriendly.

2) This is an IPA with an estimated ABV of 7%. Therefore it's a little "bigger" and maybe that's delaying the carbing process a bit.

 

[Yooper]

Little followup:

1) With the Karo syrup, my internet research told me dextrose is basically corn syrup, and Karo is corn syrup. That's why I used it - bought it at the grocery store instead of having to head for the LHBS where the prices are unfriendly.

2) This is an IPA with an estimated ABV of 7%. Therefore it's a little "bigger" and maybe that's delaying the carbing process a bit.

I'm thinking the problem is Karo syrup. That is NOT dextrose. You should use about 4-5 ounces of corn sugar (dextrose). Dextrose is 99 cents a pound where I shop, so a pound is enough for 4 batches.

To calculate the correct amount of karo syrup might require knowing how many grams of sugar are in an ounce, so that you add the correct amount. It wouldn't be a one-for-one replacement.

 

[cbg96]

I'm thinking the problem is Karo syrup. That is NOT dextrose.

Uh-oh.

 

[Tenchiro]

Yep, that looks like the problem. It is corn syrup, but is made from starch and is actually glucose. (according to wikipedia)

Corn syrup is a syrup, made using cornstarch as a feedstock, and composed mainly of glucose. A series of two enzymatic reactions are used to convert the corn starch to corn syrup.

 

[Kungpaodog]

Since the beer is already in bottles, carb tabs may be a good way to go. They strike me as an easy way to measure an even amount into each bottle, and I believe the yeast should still be active enough to eat them.

 

[sterling214]

Karo also has things like vanilla and salt in it. I don't think that sound like somthing I would want to put into my hard work.
also, from their own website
Q:What is corn syrup?
A:Corn syrup is a mildly sweet, concentrated solution of dextrose and other sugars derived from corn starch. It is naturally sweet. Corn syrup contains between 15% to 20% dextrose (glucose) and a mixture of various other types of sugar.

 

[lapaglia]

There are 12 grams of sugar in 2 tablespoons (1/8 cup) of Karo. So thats 72 grams of sugar in 3/4 cup by volume. 5 oz of dextrose is 142 grams of sugar by weight or 3/4 cup is 150 grams by volume. You only have 50% of the sugar you need.

 

[cbg96]

Crap.

Alright, so what's the fix?

I could go get some dextrose and re-bottle, I suppose, but that would be a massive pain in the buttocks.

Alternative plan is move to a warmer spot with a little shake-shake for any sleeping yeast and give it another week before testing to see if there is a favorable impact - aka the "Relax, Don't Worry etc, etc" Patience method.

 

[ifishsum]

Carb tabs. Basically a corn sugar tablet. If they're only half carbed, maybe uncap them, drop in 1/2 the recommended number of carb tabs and quickly re-cap . You should be able to save them, but they will have a slightly different flavor from the corn syrup. Not necessarily bad, but different.

Table sugar would carb them too, but for sanitation reasons I probably would not use it nor would I recombine the batch into a bottling bucket to add dextrose. Any way you go, you've really got nothing to lose by trying to save the batch.

Half the sugar will finish at half the carbonation level no matter how warm you get them or how much time they have.

 

[Yooper]

Carb tabs. Basically a corn sugar tablet. If they're only half carbed, maybe uncap them, drop in 1/2 the recommended number of carb tabs and quickly re-cap . You should be able to save them, but they will have a slightly different flavor from the corn syrup. Not necessarily bad, but different.

Table sugar would carb them too, but for sanitation reasons I probably would not use it nor would I recombine the batch into a bottling bucket to add dextrose. Any way you go, you've really got nothing to lose by trying to save the batch.

Half the sugar will finish at half the carbonation level no matter how warm you get them or how much time they have.

Yeah, I'd get either the carb drop, or better in this case maybe, those carb tablet. They have a "dosage" on them, like 4 for 22 ounces, 3 for 16 ounces, 2 for 12 ounces, etc. I'd simply uncap the batch, carefully add 1/2 the dosage, and place a new cap on. Recap. I'd recommend doing just one at first, though, over a sink. Google nucleation point to see why if you need to.

As the others said, light colored Karo has vanillin in it, but it might not be detectable in your beer. You can sometimes change ingredients, but not usually stuff like this. You would have been fine using table sugar, for example, in this case. Brown sugar, maybe. Honey, probably. You could have certainly used dry malt extract. You don't always need dextrose. We generally use it, though, because it's quick and easy.

 

[Revvy]

You've only had it in the bottle for 2 weeks...seriously give it some more time...I've had beers take 4-6 weeks to carb up....

Don't add prime tabs or anything until it's been at least 4 weeks....this isn't inorganic chemisty, it's living micro organisms....They have their own agenda and timeframe....

Just roll the bottles on the table, stick them back into the closest and gp brew another batch of beer, and come back in 2 weeks to see these are okay...or THEN prime them...but not before...

It's actually possible according to some old brewing books and running numbers in beersmith to carb beers without adding ANY sugars....but it takes time..

SO at least give your the benefit of the doubt...becasue if you do add prime tabs and you didn't really need to then *BOOM* either you'll get bottle bombs or gushers...either was that's a waste of beer....

 

[cbg96]

You've only had it in the bottle for 2 weeks...seriously give it some more time...I've had beers take 4-6 weeks to carb up....

Don't add prime tabs or anything until it's been at least 4 weeks....this isn't inorganic chemisty, it's living micro organisms....They have their own agenda and timeframe....

Just roll the bottles on the table, stick them back into the closest and gp brew another batch of beer, and come back in 2 weeks to see these are okay...or THEN prime them...but not before...

It's actually possible according to some old brewing books and running numbers in beersmith to carb beers without adding ANY sugars....but it takes time..

SO at least give your the benefit of the doubt...becasue if you do add prime tabs and you didn't really need to then *BOOM* either you'll get bottle bombs or gushers...either was that's a waste of beer....

Thanks much Revvy, Yooper, and Ifish. I gotta say especially Revvy, and I did indeed read the "patience" post on the blog.

For batch two, still in primary, obviously the answer is to get my mitts on some guaranteed dextrose, which I can do via the LHBS. I am concerned about saving this batch and am prepared to go with the patience method. I didn't necessary expect the batch to be ready when I sampled, but after looking at the youtube video posted in Revvy's blog entry, I did expect more in the way of head and that's what started me worrying.

I don't want to open and recap, and from what Yooper pointed me at and a quick google, "nucleation" might just mean disaster anyway: open top, insert tablet, watch the uncontrolled foamover, buh-bye beer. If I did/do go that route, it'll be dump it all back in the bucket and re-bottle.

Giving it some more time is FAR less effort, and I guess the batch wouldn't be a total bust even if it fails to carb any more than it is as the sample I tried had a good flavor, etc, it just lacked the happy bubbles. Obviously lesson learned here.

 

[cbg96]

By way of update, over the weekend El Batcho was three weeks old so time to try it out. After the last post, I moved a half rack of bottles from basement to warmer upstairs closet and gave each one a good shaking to try to roust up any yeasties.

The result was not much by way of improvement. There was slightly more carbonation, but not significantly. With 10 being great and 1 being flat, this had moved from a 2.5 to a 3.5. Still tastes good, so no problems there, but it's disappointing that I blew the carbing. Given the various postings on here, maybe if I let some sit around for another month or so and then crack 'em, they'll be up to a 5 or so. Who knows.

Meanwhile, at least batch 2 is about ready for bottling and this time I've got my big 2lb bag of dextrose ready to roll.

 

[Saccharomyces]

Meanwhile, at least batch 2 is about ready for bottling and this time I've got my big 2lb bag of dextrose ready to roll.

I keep a 5# bag on hand at all times, and use it for bottling as well as apfelwein, and occasionally to add a little extra alky-hol when I think it's warranted. Handy stuff.