Carbonation never stops?

[balrog]

I brew extract with steeping grains. I ferment between 3-5 weeks. I measure SG a week apart to ensure I've hit FG. I use a gram scale to measure priming sugar at bottling, boiling in water, racking onto it from FV, stirring to fully disperse, but carefully for oxidation considerations, and aiming for 1.8-2.0 volumes CO2 using BeerSmith and Brewer'sFriend calculators. I PBW soak every single bottle I use, bottle brush and multi-rinse with very warm water; use StarSan on bottling day with Vinator.

And just about every batch of the 15 I've made has the same issue.

It carbs in a couple of weeks, is great for a couple of weeks, and then every single bottle slowly foams out when opened.

I can't keep a stock of past brews, because I know it's going to foam, or at best be way overcarbonated, when opened.

There is no white ring of possible infection in the bottles.
There are no off flavors that I can tell.
I wash and rinse and StarSan all my equipment each batch.
I wash with soft sponge so no scratching FV or bottling bucket.

Why doesn't carbonation stop? Any ideas?

 

[JimRausch]

My 1st thought is incomplete mixing of priming solution in with the beer. But it doesn't quite fit. The one time I experienced that, the carbonation was random- some high, some low, a few perfect.
Since the overcarbonation takes weeks to become apparent, I'm betting on an infection. Take apart your racking cane, siphon, and especially the spigot on the bottling bucket. Those are areas that can hide a small infection that can give you what you're experiencing. A speck or two of black mold is all it takes. Obsessively clean then sanitize. Good luck!

 

[agrazela]

I'm totally with you, balrog. Almost all my brews since beginning a year ago did exactly the same, and I finally got a bottle bomb that made me look more deeply into this.

My simple conclusion is that carbonation does not stop because there are still fermentables (and probably more importantly, near fermentables becoming fermentable through acid hydrolysis) in your bottled beer that the yeasts will continue to slowly snack on over an extended time if the bottles are stored at warm (room) temperature.

(Keggers, dedicated beer fridge people, and folks with 50°F basements don't have these problems!)

I've posted my thoughts and findings in some recent threads on this very topic, you might find them interesting:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/beer-bottled-without-priming-sugar-469060/index3.html
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/an...actoring-unfinished-wort-fermentation-488397/

My experience tells me you got two choices as a bottler:

1. Extended bulk storage (like, 6-8 weeks or more) to make sure fermentation is over before bottling, as in no change in gravity over 2-3 weeks...and frankly, I'm not even totally sure about that one (too few personal experience data points), since priming sugar "reawakens" fermentation and I suppose could lead to some overcarb even after an extended secondary. Plus that surely ain't no solution for hoppy, "drink 'em young" brews.

2. Refrigerate (or, if very brave, pasteurize) the bottles immediately after they have carbed up in that initial 3 or 4 (or so) weeks. This works for sure, but you do need some serious fridge space...or a big, lidded pot to pasteurize in.

Personally, I plan to get a dedicated beer fridge. Pasteurizing carbed bottles is way too nerve-wracking for me.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I'm totally with you, balrog. My conclusion is that carbonation does not stop because there are still fermentables (or near fermentables becoming fermentable through acid hydrolysis) in your bottled beer that the yeasts will continue to slowly snack on over an extended time if the bottles are stored at warm (room) temperature.

(Keggers, dedicated beer fridge people, and folks with 50°F basements don't have these problems!)

I've posted my thoughts and findings in some recent threads on this very topic, you might find them interesting:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/beer-bottled-without-priming-sugar-469060/index3.html
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/an...actoring-unfinished-wort-fermentation-488397/

My experience tells me you got two choices as a bottler:

1. Extended bulk storage (like, 6-8 weeks or more) to make sure fermentation is over before bottling...and frankly, I'm not even totally sure about that one (too few personal experience data points), since priming sugar "reawakens" fermentation and I suppose could lead to some overcarb even after an extended secondary. Plus that surely ain't no solution for hoppy, "drink 'em young" brews.

2. Refrigerate (or, if very brave, pasteurize) the bottles immediately after they have carbed up in that initial 3 or 4 (or so) weeks. This works for sure, but you do need some serious fridge space...or a big, lidded pot to pasteurize in.

My guess is that you're getting something else going on than this, because the real world data doesn't line up with your science. If what you were saying were true, every bottle conditioned beer in existence would be impacted. Most pro brewers who bottle condition crank them out much faster than homebrewers, without a problem.

I have personally had beers bottle condition from anywhere form 3 weeks to more than 2 years, and never have a problem with overcarbonation (my carb problems could all be traced elsewhere).

I don't know the exact mechanism, but there's some sort of oxalate precipitation that can happen when calcium levels are low, and that can cause gushing with or without infection. I would look there first.

 

[myndflyte]

I've had beer in a bottle, not in cellar conditions, for over 2 years with no bottle bombs or over carbonation. Once the sugar is gone, that's usually it. Are your fermentation temps lower than normal that you may get a stuck fermentation? Maybe try dialing down priming sugar a bit and see if that helps.

 

[JimRausch]

Last night I opened a bomber of Special Bitter that I brewed in 12/31/11 and bottled in Jan/2012. It was stored in an insulated box in my garage where the environmental temps range from subfreezing in the winter to low 80s in the summer. Perfect carbonation. And it was very tasty too- better than I remember it from 2 years ago. Also makes me wonder if the whole staling of beer thing is a myth. I have a few bottles from every batch dating back to Jan2011 out there. No bombs.

 

[tooldudetool]

Use less priming sugar. Considering you've pretty much eliminated all the other possibilities in your original post, if the amount you're using is resulting in too much carbonation, just use 10% less, and see how you like the results.

 

[TopherM]

Do you keep the bottles at fridge temps for a couple days before serving? At room temp, there is CO2 trapped in the headspace of the bottle that can't dissolve into the beer at that temp.

Once you get them down to fridge temps, that CO2 starts to dissolve into the beer, which takes something like 15 hours, but I always give it 36-48 to be sure.

Put a homebrew, bottle conditioned beer in the fridge or freezer just long enough to get cold, and that extra CO2 that's trapped in the headspace will kinda rush out, disturbing the nucleation sites on the surface of the beer and causing the slow gush you describe.

Just a possibility.

 

[balrog]

Put a homebrew, bottle conditioned beer in the fridge or freezer just long enough to get cold, and that extra CO2 that's trapped in the headspace will kinda rush out, disturbing the nucleation sites on the surface of the beer and causing the slow gush you describe.

1) Interesting as I only cool 1 or 2 for a few hours or < 2 days before drinking; but I also noticed this when drinking straight from basement, but now that I temp log I've found my "always 60-ish" is really 72°F during the Summer.

2) I've often wondered about the racking cane and tubing. It gets rinsed and StarSan'd but forcing tubing repeatedly on/off racking cane and bottling bucket surely goes against all that "never scratch your plastic".

I don't know the exact mechanism, but there's some sort of oxalate precipitation that can happen when calcium levels are low, and that can cause gushing with or without infection. I would look there first.

"Oxalate" struck my eye--my homemade PBW is Oxyclean. Maybe more rinsing is required? I soak/scrub every single bottle in the stuff.

"Low Calcium levels" definitely. My local water report says my water is practically devoid of everything (Alkalinity 4mg/L Ca 2.08mg/L Hardness 7.5mg/L) and my LHBS guy has me use 0.5oz of "water crystals" each 5G batch. I've no idea what they are, but I dutifully measure the stuff out and watch it not dissolve in the heating water, trusting Mr. LHBS Guy.

Thanks for the feedback. Will clean some more. I already take it all apart and clean now, but maybe rinse some more. Change tubing. I can't do the fridge storage.

 

[Qhrumphf]

1) Interesting as I only cool 1 or 2 for a few hours or < 2 days before drinking; but I also noticed this when drinking straight from basement, but now that I temp log I've found my "always 60-ish" is really 72°F during the Summer.

2) I've often wondered about the racking cane and tubing. It gets rinsed and StarSan'd but forcing tubing repeatedly on/off racking cane and bottling bucket surely goes against all that "never scratch your plastic".



"Oxalate" struck my eye--my homemade PBW is Oxyclean. Maybe more rinsing is required? I soak/scrub every single bottle in the stuff.

"Low Calcium levels" definitely. My local water report says my water is practically devoid of everything (Alkalinity 4mg/L Ca 2.08mg/L Hardness 7.5mg/L) and my LHBS guy has me use 0.5oz of "water crystals" each 5G batch. I've no idea what they are, but I dutifully measure the stuff out and watch it not dissolve in the heating water, trusting Mr. LHBS Guy.

Thanks for the feedback. Will clean some more. I already take it all apart and clean now, but maybe rinse some more. Change tubing. I can't do the fridge storage.

I don't think it has anything to do with Oxyclean. It's calcium oxalate aka beerstone. Forms a scale on kettles and tanks and kegs and what not. But can also cause gushing in bottles if it starts to precipitate (creates nucleation sites driving all CO2 out fast, IIRC)

http://www.birkocorp.com/brewery/wh...stone-a-look-at-alternative-cleaning-methods/

Given that oxyclean isn't caustic, I don't think that would be the source. Rather I think it's something that comes from the malt that calcium helps keep in suspension. A lot of brewers (myself included) get it on some equipment, but I take care to keep a good amount of calcium so I don't have too much of a problem. 2 mg/l calcium is definitely too low for a bunch of reasons, not just this one.

Although if your "water crystals" are the same thing that Midwest offers (ie a half ounce bag comprised of both gypsum and epsom salt). Epsom salt won't add calcium, but gypsum will. Epsom salt dissolves easily. Gypsum will dissolve, but not as readily. Depending on the blend, that's probably enough calcium but it's also a LOT of sulfate from both if you're adding a full 1/2 oz per 5 gallons, a lot more than I would want in anything other than an IPA, and even then it's high for my taste.

Point here is that if you're doing what I think you're doing, it may not be a calcium oxalate problem.

 

[balrog]

LHBS Guy had me use the "water crystals" because he (certified judge) said samples of my beer were "thin" (again, English styles, std bitters, porters, my preference over hoppy American styles). Thanks for all the information; it is very much appreciated.