Carbon Monoxide Poisoning

[calpyro]

FYI. The following is a re post that I wrote a while ago:
I work as a fireman and I know first hand the effects of CO. I have been subjected to CO throughout my 25 year career and I have become sensitized to the cumulative exposures. In short, the more that I have been exposed, the more sensitive I have become. Now after 25 years, simply walking into a room with CO will cause me to become almost immediately dizzy. Many people are subjecting themselves to levels of CO that will sensitize their bodies and will become, like me, ultra-sensitive.

Also at work, I perform fire inspections in a large commercial and industrial area that frequently uses propane and other heating gasses for supplemental heating. Out of curiosity, I bring our fire department CO monitor (very sophisticated six-gas monitor) to sample the atmosphere. Propane heaters, burners, un-vented furnaces and other gas devices all produce large amounts of CO. In the last year due to our monitoring, we have evacuated seven buildings during routine fire inspections due to dangerous levels of CO.

People seem to just not understand that these propane burners produce dangerous levels of CO.
When I get together with other home brewers and brew inside, I almost immediately feel the effects of CO. While I don't have access to my CO monitor, from experience I can tell that as soon as I get light-headed, the CO level is already at dangerous levels.

My advice is NEVER use a propane burner inside without large amounts of ventilation. A fan or window opening simply won't be adequate. The size of burners home brewers are using would require a commercial stove vent hood arrangement to keep up with the CO produced. If brewing in a garage, leave the door completely open. Brewing in a basement in my opinion is suicide. CO is heavier than air and will fill the basement with invisible poison gas. Children and pets can easily be overcome with CO that accumulates in low areas. A child playing on the floor, or a person sitting in a chair will unknowingly expose themselves to potentially deadly levels of CO.

This stuff is real. I and many of my coworkers have been hospitalized due to CO and most dead fire victims succumb first to CO. If you need to brew indoors, leave the garage door up and put on a coat if it is cold. Keeping yourself warm in a bath of CO is a losers game.

 

[ColoHox]

Good advice. Thanks for laying out the dangers associated with lack of ventilation.

 

[thehopbandit]

Is there is need for concern with indoor, stove-top natural gas? Many of my brew days are multi-hour and all indoor. I know natural gas burns much cleaner than propane but is there any worry here?

 

[Melana]

Thank you for posting and inadvertently making me feel much better about brewing outside on my patio in the cold.

 

[fartinmartin]

Thank you for posting !
We had a run on this a while ago, it was astonishing what guys thought they could get away with.

 

[70ls1nova]

Great post. I have been wondering about this as I am currently designing my brewhoulse that I plan on building in my basement. I was considering installing a big bathroom ventilation fan and using the dryer vent hole that is already in the wall. I gather by your post that this would not be enough ventilation. So, as the other guy asked...what about natrual gas? I do have a gas line that was used for the dryer and no longer being used. Would a big a kitchen stove ventilator be enough over the brew pot for a natural gas burner?

 

[NBBC13]

good advice Calpyro. that's why I brew outside even when it's freezing out. if it gets too cold, then I just suck it up and downsize to a 6 gallon batch on my kitchen stove

 

[ktblunden]

Excellent post, thank you. I brew in the garage with my burner right next to the open side door and my rollup up about a foot. I get a nice cross breeze through the garage, but I should probably get a CO monitor just to be sure I'm providing adequate ventilation.

 

[bknifefight]

I am also curious if there is any difference in the size of ventilation needed using natural gas. Also, on theelectricbrewery.com, Kal has an equation to calculate the minimum CFM fan you need to vent properly. It is BTU per hour / 30. Do you have any idea if this is an standard equation?

 

[Zepth]

CO poisoning is serious stuff. A coworker was using out plow truck (unplated, only runs in our private parking lot, also not the best mechanical condition) and even with both windows down got a case of CO poisoning that sent him to the hospital. That vehicle has since been replaced.

 

[HBngNOK]

I do not disagree with your findings and experience. It is still my contention that a properly adjusted propane burner will not produce dangerous levels of carbon monoxide.

Granted my source is from a site that has a vested interest to sell propane, but in our litigious society, I can not believe they would willing put large numbers of people at risk by dispensing incorrect information.

http://www.propane101.com/carbonmonoxideandpropane.htm

Quotes:

Properly functioning propane appliances will produce what is called an "ideal burn" during combustion and present no danger of Carbon Monoxide poisoning. Carbon Monoxide poisoning can lead to severe injury and even death.

Incomplete Propane Combustion - Carbon Monoxide

Carbon Monoxide is produced during the incomplete combustion of propane. Incomplete combustion is defined as within the limits of flammability but higher or lower than the ideal ratio of 4 parts propane 96 parts air. Incomplete propane combustion can occur in one of two ways:

Lean Burn - The ratio of propane to air is less than 4 parts propane. 2.5 parts propane to 97.5 parts air would produce a lean burn. A lean burn can be recognized when flames appear to lift away from the burner and can potentially go out.
Rich Burn - A ratio of propane to air is more than 4 parts propane. 8.5 parts propane to 91.5 parts air would produce a rich burn. Recognizing a rich burn is very simple as the flames are much larger than they are supposed to be and are largely yellow in color.

Several products of incomplete combustion that are easily visible and if noticed, action should be taken immediately. Visible signs of incomplete combustion include burner flame appearance (as listed above), soot collecting on appliance windows such as that of a space heater and excessive water vapors forming on windows and cool surfaces during appliance operation. Appliance service and adjustment is needed if any of these visible signs of incomplete combustion are noticed.

 

[day_trippr]

I'm kinda curious about this proposed "increased CO sensitivity with repeated exposure" thing, mostly because I can't find anything that corroborates such a phenomenon. Which makes sense as long as the events don't occur within the erythrocyte lifespan (roughly 100-120 days) after which all of the RBCs in circulation would have been replaced with cells that have never been exposed to CO.

Otoh, I do see lots of references to an underlying increase in cardio-pulmonary system disease increasing one's susceptibility to CO. One can only hope the OP has had a full workup...

Cheers!

 

[Riley454]

Any combustible fuel (including natural gas) is capable of giving off carbon monoxide at unhealthy levels if the ideal levels of oxygen are not present. All appliances should be regularly maintained and tested by a pro especially because you can't see or smell CO and exposure can be lethal. Even long term low level exposure(the type that gives you headaches etc) causes damage to the brain and nervous system as any authoritive organization will tell you.

Best advice is keep your burner well maintained and checked and buy a carbon monoxide detector

 

[jrgtr42]

I've heard way too many bad things to even consider running a propane burner inside, and even might be a bit wary about a garage, even with the door open.
I am in early planning for my full-time brew rig, and was originally thinking about a natural gas rig, with a stove hood over top, but for exhaust gases plus getting rid of the steam that an hour of boil (not to mention heating all that strike / sparge water) kicks up.
I was reading an article about induction burners and am now kicking that idea around.

 

[BigFloyd]

I've heard way too many bad things to even consider running a propane burner inside, and even might be a bit wary about a garage, even with the door open.
I am in early planning for my full-time brew rig, and was originally thinking about a natural gas rig, with a stove hood over top, but for exhaust gases plus getting rid of the steam that an hour of boil (not to mention heating all that strike / sparge water) kicks up.
I was reading an article about induction burners and am now kicking that idea around.

Ever consider going electric? I built a 240V, 5500W, PID controlled, recirculating E-BIAB rig last year and love it. I brew in the garage and, unless the outside temps are moderate, only have to open the door if the steam from the boil gets too thick.

 

[BrewerinBR]

but I have to disagree with many of your statements here. According to you propane should never be used indoors. However I know for a fact that propane is safe as I have a propane furnace, a propane dryer and a propane stove and a propane water heater. Not to mention a propane brewery in my BASEMENT. Been using it pretty much weekly for 18 months or more and guess what the amount of HbCO in my blood is zero.... and actually the only way to know about long term exposure is to have the test done.

A molecular analysis of CO and normal air is that carbon monoxide has a molar mass of 28.01 an air is 28.97 (neither gas will follow these measures exactly {except in a lab}) and are typically so close that the two gasses mix so very readily with any type of air flow (including box fans and open windows) that blanket statements that it settles to the floor are misleading.

CO and explosive gas detectors, are effective and should be in every home. I have 5 in my house including one in my basement brewery. Placement for CO is not important specially if you have forced air systems. Placement for explosive gas is very different. Natural gas has a molar mass of 19.00 and is lighter than air so if you have natural gas place them 6 feet or more above floor. The molar mass of propane is 44.1 and heavier than air so place the detector at 4ft or less above the floor.

CO exposure is all about volume and exposure time. 100 ppm will impact a persons health causing flu like symptoms if the exposure continues over a 2 to 3 hour period. Exposure to higher concentrations will increase the effects over a shorter period of time. EPA limits expose to 50ppm during an 8 hour period.

That said... safe use of propane simply needs a little common sense.
1. Ventilation
my basement brew room is 11 by 7 by 7 or about 540 cubic feet. I have
a 4 inch fresh air inlet with an 80 CFM fan. I also have 6 inch exhaust
duct with a 400 CFM fan. The fresh air in is more than 50 feet from the
exhaust. Easily exchanging air in the room at least once every 2 minutes.
Such air flow makes accumulation of CO to 100ppm all but impossible, I
would guess that my expose over a 6 hour brew day is less the 10 ppm.
Hardly worthy of an entry.
2. Burners
Those using high pressure burners and jet type burners please note that
your big risk in using said "Outdoor Devices" inside is not CO (which is a
threat) but explosive gasses. The high pressure devices and jet type
burners were designed to be used outside and do not burn as cleanly as
those designed to be used inside (they are hotter). Those burners using
low pressure with adjustment mechanism meant to be used indoors are
safe when adjusted and maintained appropriately.
3. Maintenance
Routine and regular maintenance to ensure optimum performance is
mandatory. Not much different than the ones done on my furnace, stove,
dryer and water heater.

Disclaimer: I do not work in the propane industry and have no affiliation to it nor regulatory authority over it. I use propane in my house because I live in a rural environment where natural gas is not available and electrical service is sketchy.

So in the end, know your equipment and how to set it up and adjust it. Maintain it. Understand air flow and room size provide enough fresh air in and exhaust enough out to ensure that CO cannot build up to 100 ppm. Use CO and explosive gas monitors properly paced and adjusted, maintain them as well.

Propane can and is being used indoors successfully without killing people. Thing is it has been for many years. I do in fact take the threat of CO seriously, just as I take the threat of fast moving water in the trout streams I fish in seriously. However knowledge, and common sense and experience tell me that propane can be used indoors safely.

 

[inkbird]

This is something that should attract everyone's attention. Thank you for sharing, which makes us realize that carbon monoxide poisoning should be prevented in advance.
We will start some tests and gifts on air detectors from time to time, including carbon monoxide detectors. If you need them, please contact me.
It is important to monitor the air around you and keep yourself in a safe and healthy environment.
I wish you all a happy and healthy life!

 

[crazyjake19]

For anyone who is unaware, I'd like to point out that if there a concern of carbon monoxide one should really be using a personal CO monitor like a Sensorcon. Something that will alert you at low-level exposures. The CO detectors you get from the store and stick on your wall are great if you want an alarm that will go off after you've dropped dead - their thresholds are set quite high to the point where if it goes into alarm, it could already be too late especially in a confined area. Would you rather have a security alarm that goes off when someone breaches your property, or when the guy with the knife is standing over your bed?

 

[Rish]

Hmm...grew up out in the country, LPG heaters in den and bedrooms, LPG water heater and kitchen stove. Five of us and no one died or had any noticable ill effects.

 

[mashdar]

CO from appliances is generally a result of fouled or otherwise poorly functioning burners with incomplete combustion. It's definitely worth having the (code required) detectors.

I've read a little bit about chronic low level exposure; my understanding is that there may be pretty non-specific symptoms, making it hard to evaluate actual effects.

Rest assured, though, for acute poisoning, the standard meters are sufficient.

 

[Rish]

pretty non-specific symptoms

Well, come to think of it, I did become a homebrewer!

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Hmm...grew up out in the country, LPG heaters in den and bedrooms, LPG water heater and kitchen stove. Five of us and no one died or had any noticable ill effects.

No ill affects that you're aware of . . . .

Sorry, I just had to throw that in there.

Everyone: Seriously a carbon monoxide detector should be standard along with a fire extinguisher for the folks using gas in their breweries.

 

[hotbeer]

And just because you and your family survived doesn't mean that it's not a issue. Particularly since in earlier times, parents were more aware of what to look for as far as the color of the flame and it's shape. So younger people with parent's that never used such or knew such will be even less likely to recognize a mis adjusted burner and flame.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

The silent killer. Like a creepy clown sneaking up on you!

 

[rlrohan]

I grew up in the country with various different heating equipment. Propane, wood, coal, fuel oil, ect. None of these heaters were perfect and all could have killed us. The thing we had in our favor that could have saved us from co poisoning was houses were all drafty. Poor or no insulation. Drafty windows and doors. There was plenty of air exchanges per hour.
Now with our highly insulated modern homes air exchange doesn’t happen as much. If we use high cfm exhaust fans to remove fumes over a cook top we might actually be causing a negative pressure in the house and start pulling air back down a chimney. And if it is a chimney that is exhausting from a water heater or furnace or fireplace then co would be pulled into the house. So now we actually have to physically bring makeup air into the homes to prevent a negative pressure situation.
Just something to think about.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

I grew up in the country with various different heating equipment. Propane, wood, coal, fuel oil, ect. None of these heaters were perfect and all could have killed us. The thing we had in our favor that could have saved us from co poisoning was houses were all drafty. Poor or no insulation. Drafty windows and doors. There was plenty of air exchanges per hour.
Now with our highly insulated modern homes air exchange doesn’t happen as much. If we use high cfm exhaust fans to remove fumes over a cook top we might actually be causing a negative pressure in the house and start pulling air back down a chimney. And if it is a chimney that is exhausting from a water heater or furnace or fireplace then co would be pulled into the house. So now we actually have to physically bring makeup air into the homes to prevent a negative pressure situation.
Just something to think about.

Great points to share!

Stressing the importance of makeup air with an exhaust system is great to note too. Crack open a window or two when exhausting condensation/fumes from our brew pots, gas or electric.

A steam slayer helps but many of us don't utilize that with our brewing kits.

 

[mashdar]

If we use high cfm exhaust fans to remove fumes over a cook top we might actually be causing a negative pressure in the house and start pulling air back down a chimney. And if it is a chimney that is exhausting from a water heater or furnace or fireplace then co would be pulled into the house. So now we actually have to physically bring makeup air into the homes to prevent a negative pressure situation.
Just something to think about.

Even my 1980 house sucks air down the woodstove flue when the dryer is on. When the oil furnace or water heater is running, we definitely get fumes.

My wife doesn't smell it, which is scary

edit: I crack a window to prevent a vacuum.

 

[redrocker652002]

Someone mentioned a misadjusted flame? What does that mean? When I use my propane burner the flame is a blue color and in a cone pattern. I use it in a garage with no ceiling and usually crack open the garage door and open the rear door to the backyard all the way. If I open both the draft will blow the flame out, or at least make it difficult to regulate temps.

 

[tracer bullet]

Wow, old thread. Good advice though. I'll add a thing for consideration - if you brew in your garage during the winter, and if you have a CO meter, pay attention to it possibly getting covered in condensation as the garage warms up and / or any water vapor comes out of your propane. It'll make the Co meter unreliable - you might find it alarming when there's nothing to alarm about, or worse, not alarm if there is something to be made aware of.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Someone mentioned a misadjusted flame? What does that mean? When I use my propane burner the flame is a blue color and in a cone pattern. I use it in a garage with no ceiling and usually crack open the garage door and open the rear door to the backyard all the way. If I open both the draft will blow the flame out, or at least make it difficult to regulate temps.

Your gas flame could possibly be not getting enough oxygen. Yours sounds fine.

Those propane burners have a damper on them that you can adjust how much air is getting drawn in to the flame. Besides wasting fuel your are also producing excess carbon monoxide by not having it balanced.

 

[mashdar]

If the flame is (almost) all blue and a good shape, and isn't leaving carbon on the load, it's probably OK. (But should always have a CO detector. Cheap insurance.)

If it's leaving any carbon (black sooty stuff on your pot), that's a clear sign of incomplete combustion. The goal is to get all carbon to CO2. If O2 isn't getting in, you can be left with CO and carbon deposits (and other stuff).

Reasons vary. Damaged/rusty nozzles, improper gas pressure, blocked burner (i.e. pot too close to burner) are common reasons. Enclosed appliances also need proper draft, meaning the flue needs to be the right height/shape/size and need enough makeup air.