Carbon monoxide hazards are real

[drayman86]

Last week, my buddy and I experienced a pretty severe episode of CO poisoning while brewing in the garage. I became very light-headed, and he nearly lost conciseness.

Yesterday we brought along an OSHA-type CO monitoring device, and were able to determine the source was the hot liquor tank burner. Combination of dirty/corroded burner and burner placed too close to the bottom of the HLT nearly "snuffing" the burner flame were causing incomplete propane combustion and massive amounts of CO.

Lucky that we were familiar with the signs and symptoms of CO exposure, and could measure levels accurately to pinpoint a source. Levels returned to normal following a burner cleaning and burner repositioning.

Keep those burners clean and watch out for incomplete combustion. Pay attention to proper ventilation. We're going to have a full-time monitor in our garage for CO from here on out.

 

[Chriso]

Good warning, thanks for posting this - I'm glad you and your friend made it through alive to tell the story!

Be safe, all!

 

[Professor Frink]

Indeed. CO poisoning can be very dangerous, and it can take a long time for its effects to wane.

 

[Pugilist]

Glad to hear you two are ok. I hope you went to the hospital to get checked out. After an exposure that almost made you lose consciousness it is a good idea to have the blood, etc checked, as those were probably some pretty high levels.

 

[RichBrewer]

We're going to have a full-time monitor in our garage for CO from here on out.

Now that sounds like a mandatory piece of equipment for anyone who brews in an enclosed area with a propane burner!

 

[malkore]

props to you for posting this. it can be a real problem when people don't think about CO poisoning when brewing in confined spaces.

I'm very glad you and your buddy were aware of the potential and recognized the early symptoms, since CO poisoning is such a rapid progression to unconsciousness.

And I definitely agree, the $20 CO monitor is worth it for garage/basement brewers. I know BierMuncher brews in his basement, with a vent fan running and a CO monitor nearby.

 

[mrfocus]

And I definitely agree, the $20 CO monitor is worth it for garage/basement brewers.

Yup, it's a must. If I were doing all-grain and didn't have one, I'd brave the 10-15F and brew it outside. (Unfortunately AG will be for this summer)

 

[RichBrewer]

I stickied this thread. This is an extremely important issue that everyone should be aware of.

 

[BierMuncher]

...I know BierMuncher brews in his basement, with a vent fan running and a CO monitor nearby...

Two vent fans. One box fan in the window blowing out...and one box fan at the door blowing in. A nice cross wind keeps the brew shop cooler too.

It must work cuz I saw my neighbor last night and he said he can smell the coooking wort all the way in his kitchen when I'm brewing.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

Agreed. And CO poisoning can happen in the house, too. Or anywhere there is a heat source that uses combustibles. One thing to note: one of the first signs of CO poisoning is a nasty, nasty headache.

 

[abracadabra]

I have to disagree with Bernie that you have to have a "nasty" headache for it to be a sign of CO poisioning.

Just a headache could be a sign of CO poisioning. Even a mild headache!

But if you can afford a tank of LP gas you can afford a CO monitor. Don't count on a headache as an indicator.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

No, no you misunderstand, or at least I didn't state it very well. A headache COULD be a sign of CO poisoning. I've had that experience several times in the winter on an enclosed jobsite. So if you are getting a headache, esp if you're like me and don't get them very often, couple that with the situation you might be in, then get outside right away. Sorry if I said that wrong.



EDIT: you don't necessarily get a headache with CO poisoning, but I always did..........

 

[z987k]

according to the govt publication I have sitting here carbon monoxide poising is cumulative and symptoms include but are not limited to: headache, drowsiness, dizziness and loss of muscular power.

The thing with CO is it has a higher affinity to your blood (the hemoglobin right?)than O2 does. On top of that, once a CO molecule has attached to a cell, that cell is permanently incapacitated. Therefore after CO exposure your respiratory capacity will be lower until the cells are replaced.

 

[Got Trub?]

Last week, my buddy and I experienced a pretty severe episode of CO poisoning while brewing in the garage. I became very light-headed, and he nearly most conciseness.

The effects haven't worn off...

All kidding aside this is a serious concern. CO is odorless and colorless and the signs/symptoms can be subtle and insidious until it is too late. Couple that with the propensity of homebrewers to hoist a few while brewing and the danger is clear.

If you are going to brew indoors then a CO monitor is essential. CO is heavier then air so cracking a window may not be sufficient. If you brew in your garage the best way to ventilate would be to raise the garage door up a foot or so. Alternatively BeerMuncher's approach with fans should be more then enough.

GT

When not brewing I'm an ER doc at a hospital with a Hyperbaric chamber where we treat CO poisoning all the time.

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

Now that sounds like a mandatory piece of equipment for anyone who brews in an enclosed area with a propane burner!

I think it should also be known that Natural Gas can produce Carbon Monoxide as well.

 

[korndog]

I stickied this thread. This is an extremely important issue that everyone should be aware of.

Thanks for that Moderator. I wouldn't have caught it otherwise.

 

[CollinsBrew]

I had this same experience before. I brew in my garage which is actually part of my basement. The first time, I got a nasty headache right towards the end of my brew session. At the time I just thought that I had gotten a migraine. Two weeks later I experienced the same headache after brewing with some feelings of nausea...then I knew for sure. I had this problem even though I had my garage door completely open and our side door propped open. To remedy the problem I placed a fan in the doorway blowing out and I made a concious effort not to stand over my brewpot for extended periods. I have had migraines before but these headaches were far worse than any migraine I've had before. LESSON LEARNED!!...the hard way.

 

[JVD_X]

CO is heavier then air

CO is heavier than air but not enough that it stays at the bottom when air is being mixed. Without proper ventilation, say a basement that isn't used, then the CO will quickly form at the floor. However, any movement in the room (even convection of air caused by the burner) will mix the CO in with the rest of the gases throughout the room.

Cracking the garage door may in fact not be enough.

 

[Rhoobarb]

Great post on a serious subject. I had a CO detector in my garage in my old house where I brewed and will be getting one for the new house's garage, too. I spent one holiday season working part time for First Alert, helping out with answering their help line. That's their busiest time of year. I learned a thing or two in my short time there.

Carbon monoxide is the #1 cause of poisoning death in the US. It can be given off by home appliances or even a car in an attached garage. Most people that have an alarm go off think their alarm is defective when, in fact, they really do have a CO problem. 90% of the calls I got when I worked for FA were of that nature.

If you have a newer home, you're even at more risk because most newer houses are built better than they used to be. With better insulation, more precisely made doors and windows and better construction methods in general, homes have less leaks than they did 20-30 years ago. That's great for your energy bills, but leaves any trace of CO trapped in your home.

If you brew in a basement, garage or any enclosed or even semi-enclosed area, a detector is a must. It's damn cheap insurance, especially now that they are much more accurate today than they were just five years ago.

And a big word of advice. Make sure and get a detector with a battery back up. There are a couple of cheap models still on the market that only run on the AC in your house. If you have a power outage, those detectors are rendered useless.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Could someone more knowledgeable than I recommend a good place to purchase a CO monitor. Are they a dime a dozen, or are there better and worse models out there? Is this a HD or Lowe's run, or should I be ordering online?

Thanks

 

[Philip1993]

Great post on a serious subject. I had a CO detector in my garage in my old house where I brewed and will be getting one for the new house's garage, too. I spent one holiday season working part time for First Alert, helping out with answering their help line. That's their busiest time of year. I learned a thing or two in my short time there.

IIRC, the sensors in CO detectors depleted by use. Can you confirm or deny?

If so, a CO unit might last a lifetime in a house, but need to be replaced much sooner in a higher-CO environment like a brewery.

 

[nicksteck]

I'm in the heating trade and deal with co on a weekly basis, knighthawk detectors are the best store bought detector, the first alerts false trip and then people don't listen to them when the have a real problem. also get the model that gives you a reading and that plugs in, if your power goes out you will not be brewing.

Nick

 

[Homercidal]

A firend and his family nearly died of CO poisoning a couple of years ago. Fate brought his son home frome work in time to drag them outside before it was too late. Luckily none of them went unconcious, but they were very incoherent and def would not have thought about CO poisoning in time to save themselves.

CO detectors are worth having around.

 

[Lucky Dog Brewing]

I'm thinking about setting up a All Grain rig, and I was going to do propane outside like most. But, I was wondering if I did it in the basement which is where all my brewing equipment and storage and everything is, could I do it with natural gas? Just like a stove, but use the jet burners and everything like propane set up. Would I have to worry about fumes and Carbon Poisoning ?

 

[Yooper]

Yes, I would think so. Any time you have incomplete combustion or inadequate ventilation, you have a risk of co. The key would be to make sure the burners are efficient, and to have appropriate ventilation at all times.

 

[drayman86]

One thing to note: one of the first signs of CO poisoning is a nasty, nasty headache.

Sometimes, but not always. I've experienced CO before that caused a headache, but this last time it presented as lightheaded/dizzy. Symptoms appear to be related to source and amount of CO in the air.

 

[boothbrew]

I brew in my basement and have a co monitor right by my brew area; however, I don't have the best ventilation down there.
I'm going to get something going before my next brew after reading this thread.

 

[MikeFlynn74]

WE SHOULD OUTLAW C0

Think of the KIDS!

You know what I meant

 

[z987k]

Co != Co2 ............

 

[max4677]

I'm definitely going to look into putting in a vent hood in my brewery in the new house.

Aren't CO monitors required by code now (at least near bedrooms)? From what I understand you don't want them too close to a ignition source or else they may false alarm too soon.