caramel and butterscotch

[BrettFitz]

I've just started brewing again after a 25 year "break." Back then I was working from kit boxes.

This go around, I'm trying to understand wtf I'm doing. Thought I'd start with a recipe that was easy, and a good beer - brewed 3 batches of a two hearted clone recipe, making very subtle adjustments so I might be able to learn some of the differences at this basic recipe level before moving on to the deeper end of the pool.

The first batch was to the letter, sort of. It was a disaster, from over boils, to not having enough ice to cool it fast enough, to fermenting it in the bucket that had the spigot. (Feel free to laugh. I'm laughing as I type this.) Need less to say, I bumped the dang spigot on the 10th day of fermentation, and most of that 5 gallons leaked onto my office wood floor.

Learned a lot that first batch...

ANyhow, that batch had a strong butterscotch and caramel flavor.

Not a total turn off, but not what I was expecting or looking for. I figured it was due to something I did wrong.

Moving ahead to the second batch, I had no issues at all. Perfect boil, chilled quickly, fashioned a fermentation chamber from an old broken fridge and maintained a consistent temp of about 68-70. Primed with honey instead of sugar. That was a fantastic beer!

The third batch went much the same as the second. The only difference I can tell was the yeast - the first and third batches I used wyeast #1332. The second batch was not a liquid yeast (supplier was out, and darned if I didn't write the stand-in yeast down. Thought it was on the recipe sheet but no such luck).
I also added a half pound of honey just before flame out, looking to clean the beer up a bit, dry it out and up the ABV.
I just sampled a bottle from that batch and it has a little bit of that caramel/butterscotch undertone. Not nearly as strong as the first batch, but it is clearly there. Granted, this batch was just bottled 6 days ago so it might be a bit green yet. Frankly I don't know if that has anything to do with these flavors.

I have a lot to learn...

The question is, what is the cause of those sweeter flavors? Did I not let it ferment long enough? (each batch fermented 11 days). Or am I making a careless move somewhere along the process?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts. Like I said, I'm a total nubie so I'm open to any criticisms or suggestions.

Brett

 

[Ultrazord]

I'm not an expert, but I think the butterscotch is caused by diacetyl. I think that often occurs when it ferments too high of a temp. It may have also been pulled off the yeast too early.

 

[airving]

If you're detecting sweet flavors in the finished product, it might not have fermented out completely. What does your hydrometer say? You didn't say anything about hop additions - did you vary those at all across your three batches?

Posting the recipe would help folks analyze it and assist - balancing hop bitterness and residual sweetness is key.

 

[BrettFitz]

Gotcha. Here's the recipe as printed. (except for the honey primer I mentioned in batch 2, and the honey at 5 min in batch 3)

5.00 LB Extra Light Dry Extract (3.0 SRM)
5.00 lb Light Dry Extract (8.0 SRM)
1.00 ox zythos (10 min)
1.00 oz centenial (60 min)
1.00 oz centenial (20 min)
1.00 0z centenial whole leaf (flame out)
1 pkg NW ale (wyeast #1332)

The first and third batch were ONLY centennial, pellets...

I think part of the problem I'm having with the whole deal is my ingredient supplier is sort of loose with things. Out of whole leaf? "Oh, take these pellets, it's the same thing." Like I said, I'm new at this. But I sort of feel like he's brushing past details that I want to know more about. Maybe I'm wrong. I donno.

Hydrometer readings: I have an aversion to popping the lid to take hydrometer readings. I get the concept, but goddang that plastic lid is not easy to pop off. And since I have to "lean on it," I'm very concerned about introducing an infection. I'm a yeti looking, sloppy, hairy disgusting guy, I should be wearing a hazmat suit so I don't introduce funk just by walking by. Not to mention oxygen - maybe I'm being overly sensitive to that as well. Should I just wait longer than 11 days? Say 15 or 20 for this basic recipe? Or just man up and take measurements?

As far as the hydrometer readings go: if it starts at 1.065, how do I know it is done fermenting? Am I looking for a stable reading, or is there a number I'm shooting for?

I hope I'm not offending anyone with such basic questions, I know I ought to be able to look this crapola up and figure it out on my own. But it is what it is - between jobs, family and volunteer hours I'm shamelessly looking for tips from first hand players.

 

[airving]

Ha! Great visual. You're in good company here.

Opening the fermenter is always a risk, but it's got to be done. Just sanitize your instruments and hands, etc. Couldn't agree more about the lids - I've seen lid-opening tools for sale, btw. Take your original gravity (and temperature at the same time) just before adding your yeast. Your 11 days _should_ be sufficient, many folks wait longer. Three weeks isn't abnormal (but not necessarily a requirement either).

Don't worry about oxygen during sampling. You're not splashing the stuff around. If you're lifting the fermenting bucket up and pouring all 5 gallons into another bucket - then you might want to worry about oxygen. More realistically, if you're transferring from your bucket to a carboy for secondary or to a bottling bucket, etc, then most folks will tell you to make sure that the end of the transfer hose is resting on the bottom of the destination vessel so that the beer isn't splashing.

Measuring the gravity before bottling is necessary, though. For your recipe the gravity should have been ~1.087 (given 10lbs of DME in 5 gallons). You can anticipate the yeast will chew through ~75% of that (the apparent attenuation - often listed for yeast strains) leaving you at about 1.022. People do see a higher amount of unfermentables in LME and DME than in all grain batches (where mash temps and other factors are known). So extract batches _may_ end up at a higher final gravity. Either way, you are looking for a stable gravity before declaring it done. 3 days in a row without change is the benchmark. If the gravity is high and/or the fermenation is still active, you risk bottle bombs - too much pressure buildup in the bottles can cause explosions.

Finally, your hop utilization (and therefore the resulting bitterness) will vary drastically based on how big a boil you're doing. How many gallons are you boiling at once?

 

[chickypad]

I have a few thoughts based on what you are describing.
1) yeast strain - I'm wondering if the dry yeast you used on the second batch could have been US-05. I'm not familiar with 1332 but from the description sounds not as clean as 05.
2) fermentation temps - as someone mentioned fermenting on the higher side can give you diacetyl which could be the butterscotch. Do you have the probe against the fermenter or just inside the ferment chamber? The beer temp during fermentation will be higher than the ambient. 68-70 is a little on the high side anyway for many ale yeasts but if that is ambient then the beer could easily have been fermenting in the mid 70's
3) extract - do you do partial boil and if so do you do late addition? By that I mean adding a portion of the extract with 15 min to go. Partial boils with all the extract added at the beginning can give you some darkening and carmelization type flavors. When I did extract brews I had much better luck with the late addition technique.

Lastly knowing your final gravity would help. You may just not have gotten good attenuation making the beer sweeter than you were aiming for.

 

[BrettFitz]

Airving - thanks, you gave me some specific things to look up - most of which I found on this great site. I think right away I've come to the conclusion that I will be fermenting about 25 days per batch. Since I just realized my fermenting chamber can actually hold two vats, I should be able to resist the urge to tap in early if I stagger them.

My boil has been 3 gallons. Actually, the pot I use is ceramic and not quite 4 gallons, so I start off with about 2.75 gallons in the boil, then add the rest once it has cooked down just a bit. The first batch had a HUGE boil over. I was not heating the add-in water before, but after reading through some threads I will for sure from here on out.

Chicky - I wondered about the yeast myself. The Wyeast liquid packet is pretty sexy, and I was sort of bummed the second go-round I had to go with the dried packet. But that was by far the best batch. Had one last night, man if they all turned out that clean I'd be absolutely ready to move on to more of a challenging recipe. But alas the third batch seems to have a little more sugary taste. The big difference in the two might be the yeast. I did add a pound of honey at flameout, which I heard would dry the beer a bit since it ferments so high (and add a little ABV).
Hydrometer readings on the last batch was about 1.066 (77 deg.) right before I pitched, and about 1.014 when I bottled. From what I've read the past 48 hours, that final reading is pretty good (providing my hydrometer is accurate). MAYBE it just needs to age a bit. I don't mind a little sweetness to balance things out, so long as it is clean-tasting.

Fermentation temps - THAT was a huge change from the first batch to the next two. The first one was in my office, trying the "wet towel and fan" technique to keep it cool enough. It never got below 72 - that reading from the tape that sticks on the side of the bucket. After that first one, I nabbed a neighbor's busted fridge and converted the bottom to my fermentation chamber and keep it cool using frozen water jugs. I keep a few different sizes in the freezer, and have been able to keep the temperature very controlled by watching it each morning/evening and either using a smaller or larger ice jug. This summer I'll probably build something a little bigger so I can have 3 going at once, but for now this is working very well for temp.

Extract - I was dumping it all in at the initial boil (60). I will try adding some late - what percentage do you suggest? I use all dry if that matters.

Thanks for taking the time to comment-
Brett

 

[helibrewer]

If you target a 1.050-1.060 final boil gravity, you would use about 4 pounds in the boil (36 points X 4 / 2.5) accounting for boil off. Adding the remaining extract and water at flameout will get you to your actual post boil gravity.

 

[chickypad]

Yep, I was going to say add about half the extract at the beginning and the rest at the end. 1.066 to 1.014 is quite good so I don't think your problem is fermentability/attenuation. Sounds like a clean fermenting yeast with good temp control is the key for what you are after.

Don't be afraid of dry yeast as long as it's good quality (safale, danstar e.g.). Dry has advantages such as longer shelf life, no need for starters. If you really want to use liquid but are after that clean taste then I'd suggest wyeast 1056 or WL001. They are essentially the same strain as US-05 (might see them referred to as chico strain). I like to ferment these around 65 degrees.

So the fridge you are using doesn't actually run, you're using it more for insulation? And the fermenter isn't in a bucket of water with the frozen jugs? I wouldn't have thought that would work just sitting them in there but sounds like you've got it going. Building one with temp control sounds like a good idea - I'm sure your summers get pretty warm! There's a DIY forum on here if you haven't seen it that has lots of ideas.

 

[BrettFitz]

That's correct Chicky, the fridge doesn't run at all. So far as an insulator it works like a charm, and the green nerd in me likes the fact that I'm "borrowing" from the freezer above the beer fridge instead of plugging in another appliance.

When I have two vats in there, I won't have room to just set the jugs on the floor so I'm going to drill into the walls above the vats and hang a basket on each side where I can put the ice jugs.

I entered your yeast strains into my log book, I'll see if I can get them locally or whether I have to order online. Either way I'll use one of them next fo sho.

Do you keep your temp at 65 the entire time, or do you have a day or two higher up front? Or push it up after a week or so?

I have not ever touched the vat during fermentation. Should I give it a jostle once or twice along the way, see if a little nudge helps get those yeasties to dance through the whole concert?

BTW - are you a transplant, or a Steelers fan via osmosis?

Thanks again for your suggestions.

 

[chickypad]

I hold it at 65-66 for the whole primary fermentation. The initial part of fermentation is important for avoiding diacetyl in my experience. I just ignore it for 2 wks, definitely don't see the need to jostle it around. I will let it get up to ambient temp for dry hopping, but it never gets too hot where I live.

oh, and I grew up in western PA in the 70's so the Steeler fan part is genetic!