CantillonWatch

[Gaseous Clay]

Can't not 'like' a corgi pic :3

 

[beerindex]

I understand both of your points. Not everyone can take the time, money, etc to travel to the source whenever they please. I dont agree that the only other option is to turn to the reselling market.

Frankly I think that the notion of "well I cant go to the source so I must turn to resellers" to be a little entitled. We can't always get every single beer release, and in the case of obtaining these beers we are given plenty options: travel to the source, buy through local distro when available, buy directly from the source online when available, trade, or wait until you can travel to the source/buy in distro. Again, this isnt a jab at either of you directly, and I apologize if it comes across that way.

Buying into the secondary market just exacerbates an already existing problem. As I stated originally, what may benefit you now wont in the long run, and it hurts others in the community.

Respectfully, I'm going to have to push back and suggest that it is you who is entitled. Cantillon is clearly underpriced in the primary market, as evidenced by the insane gap between supply and demand. The way to restore equilibrium is either increase production, which is entirely at Jean's discretion, or decrease demand by raising the price. The secondary market exists because of the inefficiency of the primary market. There are clearly enough people who value lambic at more than it is being sold for, and are therefore willing to pay a middleman for access to a product they otherwise cannot have. (As an aside, I'm not one of them; 100% of my lambic purchases have been from bottle shops or bars, not on the secondary market, though I fully support others buying on the secondary. And while I've traded a few bottles of lambic, I've never sold one, or for that matter any beer, unless you count sending out c+s Schramms to a few people as a favor.)

So really, what it sounds like to me is that your real complaint is that you don't want to or cannot afford to pay secondary market pricing, and therefore object to the existence of a secondary market. You're right that not everybody can get every beer. But it hardly seems sensible to champion an inefficient market whereby those who care less about the product (as evidenced by the maximum price they're willing to pay) should have access to it instead of those who care most about it (likewise evidenced by the maximum price they're willing to pay) simply because of an accident of geography and distribution. From my vantage point, I think a secondary market is both healthy and natural under the circumstances. Believe me, I'm not thrilled about how it has impacted pricing and availability either, but it is inevitable unless/until JVR raises prices massively across the board or moves to a Zwanze Day style distribution method for his entire output.

 

[amk1]

Its interesting that you bring up Etre. I do not consider them to be participants in the secondary market. As far as I know, they charge the same prices for items on their webstore as they do in their brick and mortar. Them shipping abroad is an added benefit that other stores could surely follow. I also believe they have expressed permission to sell these beers, though please correct me if I am wrong here. I do not put them in the same group as those who send out army's of mules to hoard beer in order to flip at an absurd price for maximum profits.

I agree that pissing and moaning about not being able to acquire certain beers is entitled behavior, yes. I also think that turning to the secondary market when you are unable/unwilling to obtain the beers through the available legal/ethical channels to be of the same entitled nature. The common thread being the idea of "this beer has been released therefore I must have it".

To play on your example, "is there any way to source Vigneronne when I am looking for less than $60". Yes, you can visit the brewery/Belgium, wait until it is released online if they decide to do so, track it down in US distribution, or trade for a bottle with other purchased beers. The other option is going without the beer, which brings me back to the entitlement issue I brought up. Again, I dont want to make it seem like i'm taking a jab at you directly. I dont know you, and I have no reason to be nasty to you, but this is a common trend that Ive seen for years and has always bothered me. We cannot get every beer release. We are given options to do so, and if we are unable/unwilling to adhere to these options, then we should accept the fact that we may have to go without.

Turning to the secondary market is not the answer, and its unfortunate that many see it as such.

The fact that a secondary market exists suggests there's a market inefficiency which can really only be resolved if breweries decide to charge more for their beer and/or they up their production and distribution to meet the demand that is clearly out there.

I admit that I personally enjoy doing beer-centric trips periodically (it has admittedly gotten a little out of hand this year), but I also understand it is because I am single, have some dispensable income, and am able to actually use my vacation days. However, I can definitely sympathize with those who have families which can severely limit their ability to do these sorts of trips. In that case, I admit I would likely turn to the secondary market too if I had disposable income and I thought the offer price was "fair" or worth it. The various legitimate methods you've listed are honestly a time sink that I'm guessing people don't have the time for since any online sales requires you to be an F5 warrior while things like Cantillons never even see the shelves at the stores that get them locally (and if they do, they're basically priced at secondary levels).

It's fine to argue that secondary isn't the answer and it is shitlordy (which I agree with). At the same time, this situation exists because demand far outstrips supply. I honestly believe that breweries must play a part in trying to curb that activity. As such, I've been encouraged to see the initiatives taken by both Cantillon (online bottle sales) and 3F (ability to arrange for shipping when purchasing bottles onsite). Hopefully they continue to try new things but I don't know it'll ever be resolved until supply gets considerably closer to demand.

 

[Gaseous Clay]

Respectfully, I'm going to have to push back and suggest that it is you who is entitled. Cantillon is clearly underpriced in the primary market, as evidenced by the insane gap between supply and demand. The way to restore equilibrium is either increase production, which is entirely at Jean's discretion, or decrease demand by raising the price. The secondary market exists because of the inefficiency of the primary market. There are clearly enough people who value lambic at more than it is being sold for, and are therefore willing to pay a middleman for access to a product they otherwise cannot have. (As an aside, I'm not one of them; 100% of my lambic purchases have been from bottle shops or bars, not on the secondary market, though I fully support others buying on the secondary. And while I've traded a few bottles of lambic, I've never sold one, or for that matter any beer, unless you count sending out c+s Schramms to a few people as a favor.)

So really, what it sounds like to me is that your real complaint is that you don't want to or cannot afford to pay secondary market pricing, and therefore object to the existence of a secondary market. You're right that not everybody can get every beer. But it hardly seems sensible to champion an inefficient market whereby those who care less about the product (as evidenced by the maximum price they're willing to pay) should have access to it instead of those who care most about it (likewise evidenced by the maximum price they're willing to pay) simply because of an accident of geography and distribution. From my vantage point, I think a secondary market is both healthy and natural under the circumstances. Believe me, I'm not thrilled about how it has impacted pricing and availability either, but it is inevitable unless/until JVR raises prices massively across the board or moves to a Zwanze Day style distribution method for his entire output.

That seems like an unfair and unjustified blow at my character, of which you do not know. I tried to stray from that when responding to others here. It overshadowed your post, which frankly had some good and interesting talking points. Respectfully, I will reply to those points.

I agree that there is an issue with supply and demand here, and the distribution methods that are currently used are not aiding in that situation. I really dont think there is a simple solution for that, and as amk noted Cantillon and 3F have tried in their own ways to meet the increasing demand of the US market. I too applaud them for those efforts, its generous and a good step in the right direction. I dont think that those who pay a lower or larger amount than others for a beer care more or less about the product. Furthermore, the issue of to whom that money is paid is a big part of my disliking toward the secondary market. I agree with the lambic producers that resellers profiting unfairly off of brewers/blenders creations is unsavory and wrong.

I also think its easy to forget that America is not the primary or only market for Belgian lambic. Many of these producers seek to focus their production to meet local markets first, and their international markets second. While yes, demand far exceeds supply here in the states, we are very lucky to get as much as we do.

The fact that a secondary market exists suggests there's a market inefficiency which can really only be resolved if breweries decide to charge more for their beer and/or they up their production and distribution to meet the demand that is clearly out there.

I admit that I personally enjoy doing beer-centric trips periodically (it has admittedly gotten a little out of hand this year), but I also understand it is because I am single, have some dispensable income, and am able to actually use my vacation days. However, I can definitely sympathize with those who have families which can severely limit their ability to do these sorts of trips. In that case, I admit I would likely turn to the secondary market too if I had disposable income and I thought the offer price was "fair" or worth it. The various legitimate methods you've listed are honestly a time sink that I'm guessing people don't have the time for since any online sales requires you to be an F5 warrior while things like Cantillons never even see the shelves at the stores that get them locally (and if they do, they're basically priced at secondary levels).

It's fine to argue that secondary isn't the answer and it is shitlordy (which I agree with). At the same time, this situation exists because demand far outstrips supply. I honestly believe that breweries must play a part in trying to curb that activity. As such, I've been encouraged to see the initiatives taken by both Cantillon (online bottle sales) and 3F (ability to arrange for shipping when purchasing bottles onsite). Hopefully they continue to try new things but I don't know it'll ever be resolved until supply gets considerably closer to demand.

Right, as I stated to beerindex I agree to your first few points here. There is a supply and demand issue here in the states and whether or not there is a solution in which everyone wins is not clear. I am glad to see efforts put forth by Cantillon and 3F in this respect.

I agree, it can be costly to navigate each route I suggested (aside from sitting out on a release), but I believe if you want to support the producers the most respectful and positive way is to go through those channels. One of my biggest issues with the secondary market is its effects on getting these beers outside of the secondary market. 3F Open Days was chaotic and jam packed this year with tons of people buying to flip the bottles instead of enjoying them, and it seems that the latest Cantillon seasonal release was similar. If the secondary market finds itself increasing it will only create more issues for those who dont want to participate.

 

[NAD1983]

Sooooo anyone else going to Open Brew Days? I’ll be getting in Friday evening and I’m ready to party.

My Airbnb is right next to Midi so I’ll be going to Cantillon right around opening for coffee, pastries, and mashing. The usual suspects to follow.

 

[Fahmie25]

That seems like an unfair and unjustified blow at my character, of which you do not know. I tried to stray from that when responding to others here. It overshadowed your post, which frankly had some good and interesting talking points. Respectfully, I will reply to those points.

I agree that there is an issue with supply and demand here, and the distribution methods that are currently used are not aiding in that situation. I really dont think there is a simple solution for that, and as amk noted Cantillon and 3F have tried in their own ways to meet the increasing demand of the US market. I too applaud them for those efforts, its generous and a good step in the right direction. I dont think that those who pay a lower or larger amount than others for a beer care more or less about the product. Furthermore, the issue of to whom that money is paid is a big part of my disliking toward the secondary market. I agree with the lambic producers that resellers profiting unfairly off of brewers/blenders creations is unsavory and wrong.

I also think its easy to forget that America is not the primary or only market for Belgian lambic. Many of these producers seek to focus their production to meet local markets first, and their international markets second. While yes, demand far exceeds supply here in the states, we are very lucky to get as much as we do.



Right, as I stated to beerindex I agree to your first few points here. There is a supply and demand issue here in the states and whether or not there is a solution in which everyone wins is not clear. I am glad to see efforts put forth by Cantillon and 3F in this respect.

I agree, it can be costly to navigate each route I suggested (aside from sitting out on a release), but I believe if you want to support the producers the most respectful and positive way is to go through those channels. One of my biggest issues with the secondary market is its effects on getting these beers outside of the secondary market. 3F Open Days was chaotic and jam packed this year with tons of people buying to flip the bottles instead of enjoying them, and it seems that the latest Cantillon seasonal release was similar. If the secondary market finds itself increasing it will only create more issues for those who dont want to participate.

I think one of the biggest issues not addressed here is that JVR has been very adamant about not raising the price of lambic in house and alienating any customers...to JVR, affordability is one of the most important tenets of lambic production and for that reason will not raise prices (which is great!). Due to that, demand will always outstrip supply...to say someone is entitled because they are forced to go to the secondary market IMO is missing the point in a sense...in an ideal world everyone would certainly go to cantillon, drink and chat with JVR and have a blast...but it's just not plausible for many/most. So to say one shouldn't engage in secondary transactions when it makes the most sense to someone economically is a bit silly. I get it, secondary perpetuates secondary, but at this point there is no amount of "boycotting secondary" that will ever eradicate secondary markets completely. They exist and always will...and to some they make sense. I don't entirely hate secondary as it serves a purpose, but there is a point that I do agree that it is very ****** up...the best example is here: https://www.mybeercollectibles.com/other-items/promille28/109034 ...to me this is an issue, and while I get that being okay with "some" secondary and being against something like this is hypocritical, but I do think there is a difference between the two...or maybe I'm just drunk and rambling...

 

[beerindex]

That seems like an unfair and unjustified blow at my character, of which you do not know. I tried to stray from that when responding to others here. It overshadowed your post, which frankly had some good and interesting talking points. Respectfully, I will reply to those points.

I'm not sure which part of my post you interpret as a blow to your character - my only guess would be the entitled comment, which I would note is not materially different than what you danced around saying to boogercrack, so I'm not sure how it would be any more objectionable than anything you said. However, I do want to be clear in stating that neither with that comment nor any other part of my response did I intend to speak ill of your character. To the extent I have done so inadvertently, I apologize for the offense caused, because I was trying to have a polite but frank exchange about the value of the secondary market from the perspective of somebody who, like you, doesn't participate in it.

I dont think that those who pay a lower or larger amount than others for a beer care more or less about the product.

Keep in mind that I'm looking at this from a coldly detached economic perspective. How much a person is willing to spend, at least relative to their available assets, is the most tangible proxy we have for how a person values something. Especially when we're talking about a luxury hobby like craft beer, nobody here is living hand to mouth, and the decision to buy a given beer or not is a decision over whether or not they value a given beer at the same or a higher price than it is being sold for.

The first time I visited Monk's in Philadelphia, they had bottles of Hommage for $50 plus the city's absurd 10% alcohol tax. Presumably there are many people who scoffed at the price, thinking "there is no beer I'd ever pay that much to drink." By contrast, while I'd have loved to pay less, I also knew that I was unlikely to ever have the opportunity to try it for less, so I happily bought a bottle. At $250, I wouldn't have even considered it. So clearly, there is a limit as to the value I'd attach to a bottle of Hommage. Assuming there were only one bottle available and I valued it at $50 and the gentleman seated next to me valued it at $250, why should he have it?

I also think its easy to forget that America is not the primary or only market for Belgian lambic. Many of these producers seek to focus their production to meet local markets first, and their international markets second. While yes, demand far exceeds supply here in the states, we are very lucky to get as much as we do.

If anything, I think that serves to affirm the point that both myself and amk have tried to make. That is, demand is considerable in the US, but we don't get anywhere close to Cantillon's total productive output. Based on how much demand there seems to be, I suspect that even if tomorrow 100% of Cantillon bottles and kegs were shipped exclusively to the US for sale, demand would still outstrip supply within the US, albeit not to the degree it currently does. And it seems to be increasingly true of other countries that aren't Belgium, but which like the US used to have Loons turding up the shelf at lower prices, that there is a strong demand in growth without an attendant growth in supply. So the secondary market is a corrective tool that must exist as long as Cantillon under prices its product. I understand that obviously you, like myself and any other rational person, don't want to pay more than is strictly necessary to obtain a desired beer (or any other good or service). However, the under pricing is precisely what stimulates demand and causes the availability problem. If primary market prices for Fou were suddenly $100 a bottle, you'd see it sitting on shelves again, and the secondary market mostly collapse.

 

[BusinessSloth]

Jesus Christ. Cantillon watch thread turned into Cantillon Philosophy thread

 

[Compton25]

Jesus Christ. Cantillon watch thread turned into Cantillon Philosophy thread

More like ECON 101 Thread

 

[BusinessSloth]

More like ECON 101 Thread

Exactly.

Supply and demand.

/debate

 

[amk1]

Exactly.

Supply and demand.

/debate

No one argued that this was rocket science. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Gaseous Clay]

I think one of the biggest issues not addressed here is that JVR has been very adamant about not raising the price of lambic in house and alienating any customers...to JVR, affordability is one of the most important tenets of lambic production and for that reason will not raise prices (which is great!). Due to that, demand will always outstrip supply...to say someone is entitled because they are forced to go to the secondary market IMO is missing the point in a sense...in an ideal world everyone would certainly go to cantillon, drink and chat with JVR and have a blast...but it's just not plausible for many/most. So to say one shouldn't engage in secondary transactions when it makes the most sense to someone economically is a bit silly. I get it, secondary perpetuates secondary, but at this point there is no amount of "boycotting secondary" that will ever eradicate secondary markets completely. They exist and always will...and to some they make sense. I don't entirely hate secondary as it serves a purpose, but there is a point that I do agree that it is very ****** up...the best example is here: https://www.mybeercollectibles.com/other-items/promille28/109034 ...to me this is an issue, and while I get that being okay with "some" secondary and being against something like this is hypocritical, but I do think there is a difference between the two...or maybe I'm just drunk and rambling...

Does that not speak to my original point then? If buying off the secondary market is perceived as the most economical route, that person could just as easily save their money and travel to Belgium. It may not be as soon as some may like, it may not be frequent as they may want, but it is possible, and its one of a few options that I explained are possible for US consumers.

I understand your point, and I agree to it, there is far more demand than supply for our market. But with regard to the idea that the the secondary market will exist indefinitely as fact of life, I dont agree. You do not have to participate in the secondary market, and if more people didnt it would, over time, come to a halt.

I do not agree with your final point, there is no difference between the two examples you gave (well one example, but I get your point).

I'm not sure which part of my post you interpret as a blow to your character - my only guess would be the entitled comment, which I would note is not materially different than what you danced around saying to boogercrack, so I'm not sure how it would be any more objectionable than anything you said. However, I do want to be clear in stating that neither with that comment nor any other part of my response did I intend to speak ill of your character. To the extent I have done so inadvertently, I apologize for the offense caused, because I was trying to have a polite but frank exchange about the value of the secondary market from the perspective of somebody who, like you, doesn't participate in it.



Keep in mind that I'm looking at this from a coldly detached economic perspective. How much a person is willing to spend, at least relative to their available assets, is the most tangible proxy we have for how a person values something. Especially when we're talking about a luxury hobby like craft beer, nobody here is living hand to mouth, and the decision to buy a given beer or not is a decision over whether or not they value a given beer at the same or a higher price than it is being sold for.

The first time I visited Monk's in Philadelphia, they had bottles of Hommage for $50 plus the city's absurd 10% alcohol tax. Presumably there are many people who scoffed at the price, thinking "there is no beer I'd ever pay that much to drink." By contrast, while I'd have loved to pay less, I also knew that I was unlikely to ever have the opportunity to try it for less, so I happily bought a bottle. At $250, I wouldn't have even considered it. So clearly, there is a limit as to the value I'd attach to a bottle of Hommage. Assuming there were only one bottle available and I valued it at $50 and the gentleman seated next to me valued it at $250, why should he have it?



If anything, I think that serves to affirm the point that both myself and amk have tried to make. That is, demand is considerable in the US, but we don't get anywhere close to Cantillon's total productive output. Based on how much demand there seems to be, I suspect that even if tomorrow 100% of Cantillon bottles and kegs were shipped exclusively to the US for sale, demand would still outstrip supply within the US, albeit not to the degree it currently does. And it seems to be increasingly true of other countries that aren't Belgium, but which like the US used to have Loons turding up the shelf at lower prices, that there is a strong demand in growth without an attendant growth in supply. So the secondary market is a corrective tool that must exist as long as Cantillon under prices its product. I understand that obviously you, like myself and any other rational person, don't want to pay more than is strictly necessary to obtain a desired beer (or any other good or service). However, the under pricing is precisely what stimulates demand and causes the availability problem. If primary market prices for Fou were suddenly $100 a bottle, you'd see it sitting on shelves again, and the secondary market mostly collapse.

Its late and ive been drinking/smoking so I am going to keep myself to the point here. This has been a good discussion, and while I disagree with you I have enjoyed discussing this - truly!

I was referring to your comments about my financial standing causing a negative perception of the secondary market. Regardless, thank you for apologizing.

I stand by my statements earlier, paying more or less for something does not, in my view, equate to how much you care about the product. The person buying the bottle of hommage at $50 does not deserve the beer any more than the person paying $250 or the person getting it for free. We, as average American consumers, are lucky to be given the opportunity to purchase these beers through local distribution without having to directly travel to Belgium.

You and Fahmie25 made a similar point, JVR prices his beer low, thus there is a high demand and a cheap base product of which to capitalize on in the reselling market. I dont think that makes it ethical to do and I certainly dont think it will help aid supply and demand issues in the long run.

Im sure were annoying most others in this thread by now, i'll stop. Happy to discuss this further via PM if you want.

 

[BusinessSloth]

No one argued that this was rocket science. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You say that, but I don’t think you’ve read the thread as several don’t appear to be familiar with the concept of economics, and that the market will always find a way. PERIOD

 

[BelgianChris]

Nooooooooo

 

[Maakun]

If you pay crazy secondary prices to webstore that use mules you're part of the ******* problem. Simple as that, no need to write essays about it.

 

[RyanG1]

Secondary market bottles need to be stored on ther side as the corks suffer from Cantillon creep.

 

[bostonvert]

The only thing missing in this whole debate is the fact that there are a LOT of pissed of Belgians right now with jobs who can't just stop at the brewery during the week and then find out that everything is sold out after only 4 weekdays with not a single chance of getting bottles.

I'm lucky enough to live very close to all of the brewers/blenders but a lot of people in Belgium feel like the only people who end up with bottles now are mules, Americans and a few lucky locals.

 

[SinH4]

I think one of the biggest issues not addressed here is that JVR has been very adamant about not raising the price of lambic in house and alienating any customers...to JVR, affordability is one of the most important tenets of lambic production and for that reason will not raise prices (which is great!).

Well, pricing at Cantillon still increased much faster than inflation would suggest in recent years, so there's that.

 

[jdoucet]

I think I posted this is in the lambic.info thread, but does anyone know if they bottled LPK this year? Looks like they normally do it end of August/late September.

Available on site. I will be drinking it every visit until they run out. It is -stunning- to say the least. I must say, it needs time to breathe and then it's straight up funky cherryjuice.

There were quite a few mules/resellers there apparently. Really a shame. Fou Foune and LPF have both lasted weeks/months in the past at much higher allotments. I wish there were an easy solution that benefitted the real lambic lovers and penalized the resellers, though unfortunately I do not believe such a solution exists.

Also worthwhile to note that Nath and LPF have been available for in house consumption for months and quite a bit of Fou and LPF with out into distro, plus the upcoming online sale - which, who knows, may be larger than the last few due to high demand. They’re doing all they can to get their beer into lovers cellars/stomachs, but it really is a shame that profiteers make that harder for those just trying to enjoy Cantillon.

I was there just yesterday and I'm sure Jean has a way.
Also, the balsamico cask smelled great. I'm curious how they will be able to use it. Drink or salad dressing, either way, the smell was intoxicating.

I skipped the ECON101 class in this thread as it's same old same old, every popular brewery has that issue. In this case it is mainly an issue for locals that kept supporting the brewery during the harder times, when nobody wanted to drink their stuff. They no longer have the option of just wandering in and taking home a few bottles. I think JVR has found a nice way to counter that.

 

[alexdepalex]

Jelle, just curious, what's that "nice way to counter that"? I only hear local Belgians getting more vocal about the inability to acquire some bottles. On the other hand, when bottles are available (during weekdays no less), traders line up their army of mules and arrive at the brewery within a couple of hours. Advising people to take a day off doesn't really make any sense if they stop selling bottles after just 1 day. This makes planning, even on short notice, next to impossible. And it causes a lot of frustration with your regular visitors. This frustration is most of the times not due to the lack of bottles, but more due people making private arrangements after which the sale is halted again for whatever reason.

For this release I also see more distribution to local shop. But, at least to my experience, they don't put the bottles in the store and only tend to sell to their local (loyal?) customers. This makes acquiring a bottle, for people not living near a distro also a hit and miss operation.

I understand JvR wants to take some action. I guess a lot of people are fed up with these situations like what happened at OBD. But looking at what happened the last week, this doesn't seem the right solution.

 

[rcubed1]

Cantillon just needs to start canning hazy IPAs and pastry stouts to distract people from the good stuff. Problem solved.

 

[MikeG1]

Cantillon just needs to start canning hazy IPAs and pastry stouts to distract people from the good stuff. Problem solved.

Two words : Adjunct Stouts

 

[oakhtar]

The only thing missing in this whole debate is the fact that there are a LOT of pissed of Belgians right now with jobs who can't just stop at the brewery during the week and then find out that everything is sold out after only 4 weekdays with not a single chance of getting bottles.

I'm lucky enough to live very close to all of the brewers/blenders but a lot of people in Belgium feel like the only people who end up with bottles now are mules, Americans and a few lucky locals.

Not sure I have that much sympathy for the Belgians. A lot of them are effectively resellers, hording bottles like Fou or Lou Pepes and then trading them for big BA stouts. Belgians have a lot of other outlets to get their lambic fix in, including an incredible onsite list at Cantillon whenever they want to go. Not to mention the myriad of bottle shops/bars/restaurants that sell cantillon at reasonable prices. Is it unfortunate, sure, but they still have access to lambic at extremely affordable prices.

 

[Tlo4sho]

The only thing missing in this whole debate is the fact that there are a LOT of pissed of Belgians right now with jobs who can't just stop at the brewery during the week and then find out that everything is sold out after only 4 weekdays with not a single chance of getting bottles.

I'm lucky enough to live very close to all of the brewers/blenders but a lot of people in Belgium feel like the only people who end up with bottles now are mules, Americans and a few lucky locals.

Sounds like a West Ashley release or other Bay Area highly sought bottle or can. Usually sells out same day, even if it is a weekday.

 

[sunnrider]

Sorry to say I saw all this coming a few years back. Nobody thought it would happen In Belgium but just look at the 3f open days and this.

I drink or age pretty much all the lambic I can get but it's getting impossible lately. I've resigned to buying onsite or through friends and otherwise just waiting for the bubble to burst.... because it will.

Disclaimer :I've traded tons of belgian beer, but it was plentiful then. Now not so much, hence I trade very very little

 

[jdoucet]

Jelle, just curious, what's that "nice way to counter that"? I only hear local Belgians getting more vocal about the inability to acquire some bottles. On the other hand, when bottles are available (during weekdays no less), traders line up their army of mules and arrive at the brewery within a couple of hours. Advising people to take a day off doesn't really make any sense if they stop selling bottles after just 1 day. This makes planning, even on short notice, next to impossible. And it causes a lot of frustration with your regular visitors. This frustration is most of the times not due to the lack of bottles, but more due people making private arrangements after which the sale is halted again for whatever reason.

For this release I also see more distribution to local shop. But, at least to my experience, they don't put the bottles in the store and only tend to sell to their local (loyal?) customers. This makes acquiring a bottle, for people not living near a distro also a hit and miss operation.

I understand JvR wants to take some action. I guess a lot of people are fed up with these situations like what happened at OBD. But looking at what happened the last week, this doesn't seem the right solution.

If you are someone who enjoys drinking Cantillon, you'll be able to buy some too. He'll probably make an announcement soon enough, or he'll just keep it under wraps and won't announce anything. Come open brewdays we'll know more.
Besides, I liked the system they had before. No waring, no nothing. One minute they sold stuff, the next there was "nothing available". I pop in regularly just to have a bottle on site, so you could just buy whenever...

Not sure I have that much sympathy for the Belgians. A lot of them are effectively resellers, hording bottles like Fou or Lou Pepes and then trading them for big BA stouts. Belgians have a lot of other outlets to get their lambic fix in, including an incredible onsite list at Cantillon whenever they want to go. Not to mention the myriad of bottle shops/bars/restaurants that sell cantillon at reasonable prices. Is it unfortunate, sure, but they still have access to lambic at extremely affordable prices.

Well, let's turn this around, not much sympathy for "insert country with popular beers". A lot of them are resellers/traders, hoarding "popular beer" to sell or trade them for "insert popular beer/style". (look at the recent ADWTD release)
See, I would love to be able to buy Abnormal stouts, just to name one. How are they going to be able to give me that chance. The Americans have plenty of opportunity to get their fix in, yet I can't buy them.
I don't think you have a clue about the cantillon distribution, but it's actually better in the US than it is in Belgium, so there's that too. Chances of finding a seasonal outside of the brewery are slim to none.
At least you get a slight chance with their online sales. None of the American breweries does that because for some reason they can't ship it here. That's just silly.

 

[matedog]

otherwise just waiting for the bubble to burst.... because it will.

Looking for some feedback. Hyped beers of yesteryear, are they still hard to get? When I got into the game in like 2010, Westy seemed to be the ultimate. It was #1 on BA's top 250 and I think RateBeer too. These days, the beer nerds don't seem to pay much attention to it. It's still highly rated, but so many other pastry stouts and haze cans seem to have surpassed it in terms of what gets the neckbeards hard. Since it never gets distro (except that one fundraiser time in like 2012), I don't have a good feel, but is Westy easier to get now than say 2010-2015?

Similarly, is Topper easier to get now? I feel like I see Pliny more on shelves these days than before, but it's still not too common.

 

[Digita7693]

Pliny and topper yes, less hype and more production. Westvleteren at secondary of 10€ or so is pretty easy, retail orders are still a pain, but possible. I remember when it wasn’t so hard to get 3 cases.

 

[MikeG1]

Looking for some feedback. Hyped beers of yesteryear, are they still hard to get? When I got into the game in like 2010, Westy seemed to be the ultimate. It was #1 on BA's top 250 and I think RateBeer too. These days, the beer nerds don't seem to pay much attention to it. It's still highly rated, but so many other pastry stouts and haze cans seem to have surpassed it in terms of what gets the neckbeards hard. Since it never gets distro (except that one fundraiser time in like 2012), I don't have a good feel, but is Westy easier to get now than say 2010-2015?

Similarly, is Topper easier to get now? I feel like I see Pliny more on shelves these days than before, but it's still not too common.

Westy is easy to get if you are ok paying 12 bucks a bottle online from Etre/BiaB.

Heady is pretty easy to get since it almost never sells out anymore.

 

[alexdepalex]

If you are someone who enjoys drinking Cantillon, you'll be able to buy some too. He'll probably make an announcement soon enough, or he'll just keep it under wraps and won't announce anything. Come open brewdays we'll know more.
Besides, I liked the system they had before. No waring, no nothing. One minute they sold stuff, the next there was "nothing available". I pop in regularly just to have a bottle on site, so you could just buy whenever...

I do enjoy drinking Cantillon, I also go there from time to time to pop some bottles, but I also like to take some home with me. Some I share, some I trade with traders whom I trust, but I never sell bottles nor trade them for secondary. But as I said before, I don't have a problem with the limits or with the intermitted sales they did in the past. But more with the big announcement and its aftermath. And to be honest, I still don't know how you could start a sale on weekdays, keep selling for 4 days and then be surprised that you've run through all your stock and the backlash which followed.

I really hope that Jean finds a way to get his beer to fans, without most of the stock turning up on auction sites or "belgian" beer shops. Looking forward for Open Brewdays. Maybe we can share a bottle