Can't match MLT to HLT through Herms coil

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floormatg

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I just did my second batch on my new electric setup (Kal clone but for 5g batches), and I think I screwed up my design. The only way to maintain my mash temp is to have my HLT about 6 deg. higher... My first batch I though it was just error on my pid/rtds but I calibrated my rtd's yesterday. Stepping temperatures in the MLT are also painfully slow; to mash out at 168 from 150 I raised my HLT temp to about 180, and even then it took about 30min, on just 4 gallons of water.

Instead of 50ft of 1/2" stainless for my herms coil, I used 20ft of 3/8", as I got it for free. However now I'm assuming this was a poor choice. I figured the slower flow and batch volume would make up for the smaller surface area, but it's not.

I can get another 20ft and couple them together for free. Should I go this route or should I breakdown and buy 50' of 1/2"?
 
There are several things that affect heat transfer:
  • Flow rate
  • Turbulence
  • Material
  • Surface area
  • Temperature delta
  • etc.

A slower flowrate gives the liquid more opportunity to pick up heat. So the longer the liquid is in the heat exchange the closer it will get to approaching the temperature of the HLT water. But obviously this will affect how long it takes to cycle the entire contents of the MT through the heat exchanger.

Regarding turbulence, you don't have much control over that in the coil. But the fact that is one big curve should cause enough turbulence to help heat the liquid. Mixing/recirculating the HLT will also help with this. Are you circulating or agitating the HLT?

Copper is a better conductor of heat than stainless steel if you want to consider getting copper instead.

The higher the temperature delta (difference) the more heat you will get to transfer. The hotter the HLT the more heat you get to transfer into the wort.

Before buying another coil you should check the temperature of the liquid exiting the coil. Do you have means to measure this temperature? This will help give you an idea of what is going on. Check it to see how close the liquid is getting to the HLT temperature. If it is not close, you should be able to back off the flow and see the temperature exiting the coil rise. Obviously, this will reach a point where it isn't practical because you aren't cycling enough of the wort through the coil to heat up the mash in a timely manner. A higher flow rate will allow you to cycle more of the wort, but you would need to increase the HLT temperature to increase the temperature delta. In any heat exchanger, the media you are heating never reaches the temperature of the heat source. There is always some offset.

Also, if you aren't recirculating the HLT, make sure the discharge end of the coil is at the bottom of the heat exchanger since that will be the hottest point in the HLT.
 
This opinion pops up a lot, but it isn't correct. Reducing flow rate hurts heat transfer. That business about longer times spent in the coil don't hold water. You are trying to heat up the mlt, not the content in the coil.

Copper vs stainless doesn't make a ton of difference. Look into the thin wall approximation, common in the analysis of heat tranfer. The total heat transfer is the harmonic mean of the two convective heat transfer coefficients and the conductive coefficient.

Unfortunately I still use 3/8 herms coil, and the low flow rate is killing me. Mixing the crap out of the hlt via recirculation helped me. I still lag by about 1.5 degF, but that's okay.
 
Hmm. I recirculate the HLT pretty good. I put the output on of the MLT hose right over the analog thermometer probe while recirculating through the herms coil and I was close to 150, I believe the HLT was around 154 at the time. However my MLT temp was not rising. I'm thinking maybe I'm just not getting enough flow to get the MLT volume temp up. I'm also getting alot of heat loss to my aluminum brewstand, I need some pot holders.

I'm thinking I'll probably go with the 1/2" coil, mainly to decrease my step times if nothing else...

Thanks for the input.
 
In my case, my 3/8 coil (from stout tanks) was coiled quite tightly and in a small radius. In essence, it divided my HLT fluid into two zones (inside the coil and outside the coil) that didn't interact. I added a tee to split the recirc ingress into two paths, so some went to the zone inside the coil and some went into the zone outside the coil. This made a pretty big difference. It is possible the same thing is happening with you, although with only 20' I wouldn't think you have enough coil to cause this to happen.

The best thing you can do is insulate the MLT. None of that reflectix stuff, their R-factor is negligible for our application unless you also build an air gap into it. There was actually some sort of litigation over their claimed R-factor, as their testing method produced some deceiving results. You can tell the numbers are fishy, as on he website I think it states that doubling up the material doesn't have a large impact on the R-factor. So, all it does is reflect radiant heat transfer and create an air barrier to limit natural convection. Neoprene is a lot better, if you can buy / fabricate something that fits well. I'm sure there are other insulation material options too.

If you insulate the MLT, the coil has less work to do to add back the lost energy. It will track the HLT much more closely, and ramp up temperatures faster. A better coil (and flow rate) will help, but you have to look out for grain bed compaction if you recirc too fast. The max recirc rate will depend on your MLT dimensions, grain bill, and lautering mechanism. I think a false bottom is much more forgiving than something like a manifold or stainless braid. I'd love to see somebody do an experiment on maximum recirc rates.

One option that I would like to explore myself is utilizing an external heat exchanger for the HERMS system. Something like a copper or stainless CFC. Recirc the water at full speed through the outer shell, recirc the wort through the inner shell as fast as the grain bed allows, and maybe insulate the outside of the heat exchanger. I expect some pretty great heat transfer between the two fluids given their turbulence. With an in-tank coil, no matter how much you churn the HLT up, there's going to be a thin layer of cooler water next to the coil. A CFC would eliminate this problem mostly. I'm waiting on some other things to do this upgrade, but I plan on writing the results up on HBT.

Sorry, I rambled on too much in this post... its an interesting topic that I've spent a lot of time thinking about.
 
Hmm I never thought of a cfc for the mash.... Has this been done before?? What would stop me from using my cooling cfc for my mash as well? Nothing I can think of...
Might have to bring hlt temp up a bit to make up for heat loss but it should speed up step times. ...?
 
Hmm I never thought of a cfc for the mash.... Has this been done before?? What would stop me from using my cooling cfc for my mash as well? Nothing I can think of...
i dont see what the benefit of this over a less complicated herms or rims setup would be...I would think it would be less efficient since to would be working harder to prevent heat loss from your heating water. and the large pot of water would give a more stable thermal mass to transfer temps right?
 
If you expand your grain crush size you can increase pump speed while still maintaining efficiency.
 
The best thing you can do is insulate the MLT. None of that reflectix stuff, their R-factor is negligible for our application unless you also build an air gap into it. There was actually some sort of litigation over their claimed R-factor, as their testing method produced some deceiving results. You can tell the numbers are fishy, as on he website I think it states that doubling up the material doesn't have a large impact on the R-factor. So, all it does is reflect radiant heat transfer and create an air barrier to limit natural convection. Neoprene is a lot better, if you can buy / fabricate something that fits well. I'm sure there are other insulation material options too.

I have two layers of reflectix over all my vessels (10g Kal clone w/ converted kegs) and I have to say it insulates pretty well for being $16 a roll. The outer layer only gets slightly warm to the touch, and I only run my PID at a manual load of 63% to maintain a full boil. I live in Denver, so I'm sure that affects it as well. Maybe I'll upgrade in the future, but both the reflectix and the silver tape have been holding up very well, even through a couple boilovers.
 

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