Can't get bubbles out of beer line

[303Dan]

Hey Everyone,

I'm pretty new to kegging and I'm having some issues with air bubbles in my beer line and foamy pours. Here's my set up and what I've tried so far:

Kegco 3 tap kegerator with digital temp control and 3 tap tower
Ball lock corny kegs
Kegco Primary 2 guage regulator (mounted outside of kegerator)
Kegco 4 product secondary regulator (inside kegerator)

I have the kegerator set for 41 degrees F. When I use my thermapen to measure the beer temp out of the faucet, it's about 43 degrees.

Pressure is set to 16psi for each of my kegs at the secondary regulator. Using the brewers friend keg pressure calculator (and adjusting for my elevation of 5000ft above sea level using New Belgium's charts as a guid), that pressure and temp should result in about 2.5 volumes of carbonation.

My beer lines are 10ft.

I do NOT have a fan to recirculate air inside the kegerator, or to blow cold air up the tower, but I do have insulation and reflectix inside and outside of the tower.

One of my kegs has only been carbonating at 16psi for about a week, so it's not 100% carbonated. The other keg has been on 16psi for about a month. That keg is pouring extremely foamy and tasting a bit flat in the glass. When I look at the beer line coming off the keg, there are quite a few bubbles in it that I cannot get out. I'm assuming this is my primary issue.

I've tried pouring the beer in the line out and seeing if the beer that replaces it still has bubbles. It does. I've tried degassing the beer thinking that it might be overcarbed, but that did not help and if anything, the beer just tastes even flatter now.

I don't think it's the temperature in my tower because if it was, I would assume the second consecutive pour would be better/different once the lines were cooled down by the beer. All pours are the same: foamy.

I have plenty of beer line (10ft) according to all the keg line balancing calculators I've tried, so I don't think that's the issue.

I just don't know where the bubbles in the line are coming from or how to get rid of them. Bad beer out post or poppet, maybe? I'm using keg lube on the gaskets so I'm getting a good seal at the ball lock disconnect.

Any ideas? I'm getting pretty frustrated and wasting a lot of a tasty IPA trying to figure this out.

Dan

 

[303Dan]

Sorry, forgot to mention, 3/16" beer line.

Dan

 

[RRL]

well.. from my personal experience, bubbles in the beer line is the carbonation separating and to fix that you need increase the pressure.

Considering you are carbonating the beer yourself and mentioned it tasted flat I will scratch out the idea of it being over carbed.

in my opinion I would try it at 18psi and see if it gets better or worse.


I had a cream ale that needed 16-17psi to keep its carbonation which was a little higher then what most recommended but worked out for me in the long haul.


At this point you don't got much to loose i'd raise the psi to 18 let it sit over night and try re pouring a glass ONLY to check if you still get bubbles in the line. your beer may not be carbed to 18psi spec but with the increase pressure it should prevent separation after a short time period of sitting.


Once you fix the bubbles in beer line issue, if it still foams you can chase down other potential issues if any.

 

[303Dan]

well.. from my personal experience, bubbles in the beer line is the carbonation separating and to fix that you need increase the pressure.

Considering you are carbonating the beer yourself and mentioned it tasted flat I will scratch out the idea of it being over carbed.

in my opinion I would try it at 18psi and see if it gets better or worse.


I had a cream ale that needed 16-17psi to keep its carbonation which was a little higher then what most recommended but worked out for me in the long haul.


At this point you don't got much to loose i'd raise the psi to 18 let it sit over night and try re pouring a glass ONLY to check if you still get bubbles in the line. your beer may not be carbed to 18psi spec but with the increase pressure it should prevent separation after a short time period of sitting.


Once you fix the bubbles in beer line issue, if it still foams you can chase down other potential issues if any.

Interesting, that's definitely worth a try. So, really it wouldn't be that the beer is necessarily "over-carbonated", just that it's carbonated slightly more than the level appropriate for the set serving pressure. Do I have that right?

That made me think of something else that may have contributed if this is indeed the problem. When I put that second keg in, I dropped the temp in the kegerator down to 36 to cold crash it pre-gelatin while the first keg was still in there. Now that I'm thinking about it, could that drop in temperature have resulted in that first keg, even though the regulator pressure didn't change, to increase to a higher volume of carbonation due to it being colder, thereby creating the situation I'm in right now that the temp in the kegerator is back to 41? Then, even though the beer is plenty carbed (probably still in an acceptable range for style), the release of the CO2 in the lines due to the low serving pressure would cause it to foam like crazy and taste flat?

I'll increase the pressure to 18, let it sit overnight, and try again to see if it improves.

 

[RRL]

I dont have any experience with home brew, cold crashing and all that. Ive just had personal experience trying different styles of microbrew beers through a 1 tap system, Needless to say, every type of beer ive tried has wanted a little bit of a different serving pressure then others.


What does cause foam is when a beer is at X temp and hits somewhere that is warmer then its initial temp... But that does not answer your bubbles in the beer line issue which is something that needs to be resolved before you hunt down any other issue in my opinion.


Ive always adjusted the PSI to what the beer needs and adjusted serving pressure by hose length,

My most common beer on tap is a blond lager that likes to be around 12-14psi and I use a 5ft beer line, the pours are fairly quick but my pours are good, my friends pours on the other hand at 14psi are a nightmare.

The cream ale I had needed 16-17psi, I ended up with a 10ft beer line which was spot on.


My fridge has always fluctuated within 37-42F without any issues of foaming with that kind of fluctuation.


If your beer is showing bubbles in the line it shouldnt be THAT flat though.


Also I doubt this is an issue but I would also make sure the keg is holding pressure and not leaking anywhere that would cause it to be under the rated pressure though you would of burned through your co2 fairly quickly if that was the case.


I personally haven't came across any issues like this but ensuring you're actually pushing through 16psi is another thing I'd verify if increasing the PSI higher isn't working.

Again this is just what I think, I would hate to send you in a wild goose chase going the wrong way... At the least testing at 18psi is easy and quick. for starters


needless to say, you would be amazed at how much difference just 1-2 psi can do.

 

[raouliii]

Given that the rule of thumb is 1 foot of 3/16" ID beer line per 1 psi of pressure, off the cuff, I would say you don't have enough beer line. The friction provided by the length of the beer line should be enough for the beer to leave the faucet at or near atmospheric pressure. The only negative to having a few extra feet of line is a slower pour.

Bubbles in the beer line are most often associated with one of two issues.
The first is a bad O-ring between the diptube and threaded flange on the keg. CO2 from the headspace escapes through this unsealed interface and enters the beer stream.
The second is that there is too little friction provided by the beer line and the CO2 is knocked out of solution due to the pressure change at the faucet.

IMO, bubbles in the beer line are not caused by a temperature differential between the faucet and beer, that would just be a foaming tap. Either CO2 is entering the beer stream from the headspace are it is being released due to a pressure differential that is changing too fast along the beer line.

I have about 18ft of 3/16" beer line and have no foaming at 14psi carbonation and 39degF. In fact, I have to lower the glass for half the pour to get a 1/2" head to appear. A contributing detail is that my taps are inside my cooler, so there is no negative impact from tap/beer temperature differentials.

Here is a respected beer line length calculator you should try.

 

[303Dan]

Given that the rule of thumb is 1 foot of 3/16" ID beer line per 1 psi of pressure, off the cuff, I would say you don't have enough beer line. The friction provided by the length of the beer line should be enough for the beer to leave the faucet at or near atmospheric pressure. The only negative to having a few extra feet of line is a slower pour.

Bubbles in the beer line are most often associated with one of two issues.
The first is a bad O-ring between the diptube and threaded flange on the keg. CO2 from the headspace escapes through this unsealed interface and enters the beer stream.
The second is that there is too little friction provided by the beer line and the CO2 is knocked out of solution due to the pressure change at the faucet.

IMO, bubbles in the beer line are not caused by a temperature differential between the faucet and beer, that would just be a foaming tap. Either CO2 is entering the beer stream from the headspace are it is being released due to a pressure differential that is changing too fast along the beer line.

I have about 18ft of 3/16" beer line and have no foaming at 14psi carbonation and 39degF. In fact, I have to lower the glass for half the pour to get a 1/2" head to appear. A contributing detail is that my taps are inside my cooler, so there is no negative impact from tap/beer temperature differentials.

Here is a respected beer line length calculator you should try.

Hmm. I actually did use that exact calculator and that is what led me to start off with 10 ft of 3/16" line, given 16-18psi, 3/16" line, 2ft of height from keg to faucet and an 8 second per pint pour. I had read in multiple places that is a pretty standard flow rate, 1 gal/min, or roughly 8 seconds per pint.

That and my last keg did not pour foamy with the exact same pressure and beer line. I'm thinking this has to be either CO2 leaking out into the line, or possibly what the previous poster said about the carb level being too high for the serving pressure. I do have a 12 foot line I can try, though, and see if that helps any. I will give that a shot if upping the pressure a bit doesn't help.

 

[henchman24]

I've had some issues with the CO2 separating out of solution in the line at 40-42 degrees before in my kegerator. Lowering that temperature to 34-36 keeps things pretty happy in my setup.

I have a dual regulator setup for my beers. I have one setup for ~2.5-2.7 volumes (~12 psi) and the other at 3.7 volumes (~21 psi) and 5 and 8.5 ft of 3/16 line pours perfectly for me at my temps.

The first thing I would do in your shoes is lower the temp to ~38 and see what you get. Then I'd check your o-ring.

This is the calculator I used for mine when I started my kegerator. It got me pretty close with some minor tweaks. It is an excel file.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachments/f84/10043d1235798024-beer-line-length-pressure-calculator-beer-line-length-pressure-calculator.zip

Link to the thread on here with it:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=35369

 

[303Dan]

I just did some other tests as well. Earlier today, I put a glass of water near the bottom of the kegerator. After 6-8 hours, I measured the temp of that water and then measured the beer right out of the faucet. There was about a 7 degree difference (39 at the bottom, 46 at the faucet. Is that enough of a differential to get me in trouble?

I actually ordered a little USB fan earlier in the week that I'm going to put in there. I wasn't sure if I was going to place it near the bottom and just let it circulate the air in a general way, or maybe put it up higher pointed straight up the tower. Any thoughts on whether or not this might help my situation?

 

[RRL]

These posters bring up alot of good possibilities no doubt!


However I don't personally believe temp variance should effect the beer line co2 separation, the beer line is always 100% full and kept under pressure which will keep the beer "together" not foam and or have bubbles inside the line.

Im with Raouliii 110% on this one.

I still wouldnt stress about changing anything until you see no more bubbles in the air line. Focus on the c02 separation portion. Once you manage that part is where fine tuning to beer line length and pouring temps will be worthwhile.



When you did that pour.... was that your first pour? even in my system with a USB fan going, my first pour tends to be a little warmer and foamy, but thats because the faucet is external and beer sitting in the beer line. Sometimes ill dump about 1/4 mug of beer just to get things flushed a little and moving.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I struggled with the same issue and was able to finally resolve it, after a lot of trial and error.

Set the temperature to 36-38F

10-12psi of cO2 will give you 2.5 volumes, which is the average carbonation for most all Ales and Lagers

Use 10 feet of 3/16 inch inside diameter 'beer' line from connector to the taps.

I had to replace one of the (black) ball-lock beer connectors, even though I cleaned it and could see nothing wrong with it. That resolved the foaming issue I was having with one of my beer lines, the same kegs poured fine on the other tap go figure.

I use set and forget now when force carbonating my beer, set the regulator pressure to your serving pressure (10-12psi) and walk away for a little over a week. Good luck, these steps cleared up my foaming issue I hope this helps yours too.

 

[303Dan]

Well, I increased the pressure a few psi yesterday and looked at it again this morning. The bubbles are still in the lines. Didn't pour one to see if the beer that replaced it in the lines would get the bubbles too. I'll do that when I get home today.

Let me see if I'm thinking about some of this correctly: I was thinking if this were some sort of knick in a gasket on the poppet, or a dirty quick disconnect causing friction that's knocking CO2 out as the beer passes through, that would mean that when the beer was being poured, you would see the foaming in the lines get worse, right? That's the opposite of what I'm seeing. The bubbles are very prevelant and very big after the beer in the line sits for a while. When I pour, the beer is very foamy, but the beer in the line looks better until it sits for a little bit, then the bubbles form. To me this would rule out the obstruction knocking out CO2 as well as the line length (which should have absolutely no influence when the beer is sitting still in the lines, no?), and would seem to point to either a big teperature gradient in my kegerator top-to-bottom, or some imbalance in the keg related to carbonation pressure vs. serving pressure. Does it seem like my reasoning is sound there?

 

[303Dan]

I can very easily switch the beer line to a slightly longer (12 ft instead of 10ft) line with an entirely different quick disconnect and also going through a different faucet. And now that the pressure increase didn't help, I will try that as well when I get home.

But I'm starting to wonder if this is temperature related. At 41 degrees, maybe my compressor isn't running nearly enough to stop things from stratifying greatly. I'm anxious to see if the fan I'm putting in (should be here Tuesday) will help this issue.

 

[henchman24]

The friction would cause tiny bubbles to form, even when pulling... but they can be small enough that they are not evident right away. Over time the combine to form a bigger bubble that you see. One theory with an o-ring going bad is that CO2 from the headspace is leaking past the o-ring and into the line. That would be a slow build as well. The line won't fill with foam with turbulence.

IMO 41 degrees is already over the line, but at very least it is walking the line of being too warm. I'd get the beer under 40 degrees (I'd shoot for at highest 38) and try that.

I have my temps low because I rotate through 5 kegs and am putting a new one on with fair regularity. When a new beer is going on it causes all the other beer to warm slightly while the new beer comes down in temp. When the temp hovers above 40 while that is happening, I start to have issues with CO2 staying in suspension the line. Keeping mine at ~34-36 (I'm closer to 34 most of the time) usually means the other beer doesn't creep into the 40s and it has eliminated that issue for me.

 

[RRL]

As for checking the beer line with the higher psi... I also had to run my beer through. the bubbles that where already formed in the line didnt disappear for me when I did it, once I ran the tap with "fresh" brew is when I noticed it didnt separate anymore.


I'd try that but I think these guys are getting you in the right direction as well non the less.... Im keeping posted in this thread for the outcome so if I ever do run into other issues I'll have an idea of where else to look!

 

[303Dan]

Thanks everyone, I have a lot of things I can try. I'll make sure to update this thread when I find a solution.

The frustrating thing for me with these kegs is that at one time they were pouring fine. I must have screwed it up myself playing around with temperature and so forth when cold crashing and carbing the 2nd beer. It's the only time the variables have changed, so I have learned a valuable lesson going forward. From now on, I'm leaving the temp alone at all times, and not messing with pressure once I have the keg hooked up.

Dan

 

[303Dan]

Ok, update: one of the kegs started pouring fine again after about 24 hours at a lower temp(38) and a slight increase in serving pressure (18 psi up from 16). The other keg did not respond to the same changes. That was the one I suspected of being slightly over carbonated. So, I took it out of the kegerator for almost a day and burped it as regularly as I could, then put it back in and brought it down to 38 degrees. I also took off the beer out disconnect and inspected it. Looked fine, but I disassembled and cleaned it for good measure. That keg is now pouring fine too.

So, all is well now. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. I really appreciate the assistance.

Dan