Can't fix this foam issue

[Ps6fsu]

I built a keezer with a 2 faucet tower using a kit from beverage factory. It came with 5ft 3/16 ID beer lines, Kegco LH-542-2 Pro Series double gauge regulator, and standard faucets. From day one (4 yrs ago) i have been dealing with this foam issue. I go to pour a the first beer after being idle for a while and open the tap to clear flowing beer for about 1-2 seconds followed by a short burst of foam and then clear flowing beer again. Every beer after that is foam free. I typically have my pressure set to 10 psi. First i thought it was a temperature problem but cooling the tower did nothing. Then i installed a large cpu fan to move the stagnant air around... no help either. Moving the pressure up and down doesn't seem to help either. So i started looking into the balancing of my system. I am just lost though. If i follow the calculation it seems i need to shorten my line to 4ft.... but all i read is people recommending longer lines. Im trying to target 2.6 volumes of CO2 at 38°F. According to the chart I should be applying carbon dioxide at 12.4 psi. My faucet is about 2.5 feet above the center of the keg so that should add 1.25 psi of resistance. My 5 foot 3/16 ID beer line should add 15 psi of resistance totaling 16.25 psi.... so i am unbalanced? Is this causing the burst of foam? Or should i be looking at temps again? I have grown used to just wasting half a beer at first pour but guests don't. Im tired of wasting beer.

 

[Schwabizzle]

I had a similar problem and i ended up going with about 10 feet of line. Now I don't have that problem. I didn't do any calculation,and I'm probably screwing something else up, but I don't get the foam.

 

[Ps6fsu]

Thanks, i feel like i am going in circles here. I keep spending money on possible solutions but none seem to work. I upgraded the faucets to perlicks, i added a tower cooler, i installed a cpu fan to move the air around.... nothing seems to help. I just went out and poured a full beer that was 2/3 foam (bc of the burst) and took the temp... 43 degrees. Then poured beer #2 and it was 38 degrees. So i guess i should still be looking at a temp issue?

 

[day_trippr]

One foot of 3/16" ID solid pvc line (eg: bevlex 200) per dispensing psi will solve a lot of issues.
I would start there and see what happens.
fwiw, the only beer line length calculator worth using can be found here. Comes complete with an education

Beyond that there are two potential issues:
- if the OP is in a location where the ambient tends to be warm, the faucets can cause enough CO2 breakout to cause a cascade in the glass (bubbles beget bubbles) which could explain why the second pours are tamed
- the description of "burst of foam" bears a bit of detective work. Before the first pour of the day, take a look at the beer line to see if there are large pockets of gas - like many inches - sitting there in the lines.
If that's the case - CO2 breakout - it could be caused by a mismatch between the carbonation level of the beer and the dispensing temperature/CO2 pressure combination. Turning up the pressure could actually make that problem go away, depending on how the beer was carbonated to begin with...

Cheers!

 

[S-Met]

I don't know the answer for certain, but you may be right with a temperature variance. Keg temp will remain more stable due to mass and the conduction of the keg itself. Beer lines will not chill the same and 1/3 a beer sounds about like the volume of your lines. Could be a trivial air leak. Sitting idol could let enough of an air pocket or bubble into the line.

But why waste 1/2 a brew. Let it sit and the head will die down. If you wont drink it, use it for a marinade or sauce. Waste not want not!

 

[cloudybrewer]

Not an expert, but this got me thinking. Where is your temp control probe located? If it's insulated against the keg, the air temp in the keezer may be getting warm before the compressor kicks in. This might allow the beer lines to warm just enough to allow the CO2 breakout that daytripper talked about. If the air temp is rising, you can circulate it all you want and the first pour will be warmer that the second.

 

[Ps6fsu]

The probe is up against the back wall of the freezer about halfway down.

 

[brew703]

I'm fairly new to kegging so take what i say with a grain of salt.
I had one keg, a NEIPA, then i transferred to my keg without cold crashing. There was some hop material that transferred. Didn't have an issue at first but with about 1/4 keg left started getting nothing but foam. I have flow control faucets but no adjustment would help. Took apart the liquid post and there were some hop particles that may have been causing the foam issue. Cleaned it out and the first pour was no foam but the second one was back to foam again.
Since i only had 1/4 of the keg remaining i opted to dump what was left. The bottom of the keg was nothing but hop crap and every pour the stuff was being sucked back through the dip tube and clogging my post.
I cleaned it out and never had another issue.
Your temp probe could be a problem. Insulate it to the side of a keg. I have a spare keg that i filled with water and have my probe attached to the side then insulated. It has helped regulate the temps better and I really don't have a foam issue.

 

[Yooper]

One foot of 3/16" ID solid pvc line (eg: bevlex 200) per dispensing psi will solve a lot of issues.
I would start there and see what happens.
fwiw, the only beer line length calculator worth using can be found here. Comes complete with an education

Beyond that there are two potential issues:
- if the OP is in a location where the ambient tends to be warm, the faucets can cause enough CO2 breakout to cause a cascade in the glass (bubbles beget bubbles) which could explain why the second pours are tamed
- the description of "burst of foam" bears a bit of detective work. Before the first pour of the day, take a look at the beer line to see if there are large pockets of gas - like many inches - sitting there in the lines.
If that's the case - CO2 breakout - it could be caused by a mismatch between the carbonation level of the beer and the dispensing temperature/CO2 pressure combination. Turning up the pressure could actually make that problem go away, depending on how the beer was carbonated to begin with...

Cheers!

Yes, this. 10-12' lines will help, giving you extra restriction to avoid foaming.

Also, changing the psi of the regulator will cause that "break out" that day trippr mentions, so check to make sure you haven't done that if you're quick carbing the beer.

 

[Ps6fsu]

A little confused and want to make sire i understand all of this.

How do I insulate the probe? Once insulated, just stick it to the side of one of the kegs?

Also.. if I bought 10' of the bevlex and installed... What do you all recommend I set my temp and pressure to. I have Sam summer and Maine peeper ale (ipa) on tap right now. I know they are different styles so trying to target a happy medium carbonation level. My typical setup would be an APA/IPA for me and some type of wheat beer or white ale for the wife.

 

[jmcquesten]

A little confused and want to make sire i understand all of this.

How do I insulate the probe? Once insulated, just stick it to the side of one of the kegs?

Also.. if I bought 10' of the bevlex and installed... What do you all recommend I set my temp and pressure to. I have Sam summer and Maine peeper ale (ipa) on tap right now. I know they are different styles so trying to target a happy medium carbonation level. My typical setup would be an APA/IPA for me and some type of wheat beer or white ale for the wife.

Don't just buy 10 ft of tubing. Use the calculator that was linked to determine what you need. My wheat beer is served at like 16 psi, 10 ft wouldn't work for me at that pressure. If you really don't want to use the calculator for some reason, start with closer to 14 ft. Might be a little long for what you're serving now, but when you do get a high carbonated wheat beer, you'll still be good.

As far as temperature, that's a personal preference. Decide what temperature you like your beer and set it there, then use the calculator to determine line length based on required pressure to get the carbonation level.
Cooler temperatures require less pressure, which will allow for shorter lines.

 

[balrog]

I have to second watching for air pockets in lines. Lines coiled vertically for me gave 5-6 loops and I would get a little air bubble on top of each coil, after sitting a few days would be a total PITA as they air burst, pour, air burst, pour, and the beer in the glass would dutifully divest itself of all dissolved CO2 with each air burst.

Coiled horizontally, trying to keep the line only going upwards from keg to output, helps with that.

 

[Ps6fsu]

The 10 ft came from the calculator. I was using the 2.6 carbonation target, 38 degrees, and 12 psi setting.

 

[stz]

Hey there have been a lot of posts and stuff here already and maybe it has already been solved, but I find that my first pour usually fobs because the beer sat in the lines overnight has broken out. I get bubbles and stuff form in the lines so the first pour always splutters until the lines are solid beer. Not only this, but the first beer in the lines is likely warmer due to their position. Once I've pulled about a 1/3rd of a pint through the lines are clear and chilled down and pours are fine. It might not seem economical, but it is pretty common to pull a little beer through the lines before starting service commercially.

 

[Ps6fsu]

Hey there have been a lot of posts and stuff here already and maybe it has already been solved, but I find that my first pour usually fobs because the beer sat in the lines overnight has broken out. I get bubbles and stuff form in the lines so the first pour always splutters until the lines are solid beer. Not only this, but the first beer in the lines is likely warmer due to their position. Once I've pulled about a 1/3rd of a pint through the lines are clear and chilled down and pours are fine. It might not seem economical, but it is pretty common to pull a little beer through the lines before starting service commercially.

This is exactly what is happening to me. It is only after sitting idle for a while. After that first 3 to 5 seconds of pouring everything is flawless.

 

[enkamania]

Tower cooler and longer lines helped me. In the summer especially, I would get foam.

 

[day_trippr]

This is exactly what is happening to me. It is only after sitting idle for a while. After that first 3 to 5 seconds of pouring everything is flawless.

Can you describe how you carbonate your beers?

Cheers!

 

[Ps6fsu]

Can you describe how you carbonate your beers?

Cheers!

So i thought about my response for a few minutes trying to figure out the best way to answer this without sounding stupid. I couldn't, so here is my answer.... I put the keg in the keezer, connect the gas line and turn the co2 to 12psi. Later, i drink said keg.

 

[day_trippr]

lol! Ok, that's fine, but here's why I asked: lots of folks do a "burst carbonation" thing where they put a cold keg on ~30 psi CO2 for some number of hours - usually 24 for those who have done it successfully a few times - then drop the pressure to their dispensing setting and after a couple of days the beer is decently carbed.

But it's an inexact process to begin with, and then you get those cases where the person left the keg at that pressure for much longer, like 30 to 48 hours or more. The resulting over-carbed keg of green beer loaded with CO2 bite would then be constantly out-gassing CO2 when put into a "normal" dispensing system tuned for a middling carbonation level. Foam City, until the keg was tamed.

Otoh, the "set and forget" approach you used has the benefit of being unlikely to result in an overcarbed beer - which is what I wanted to check off.

So...Back to your question about temperature control...the larger the temperature differential the more likely there will be CO2 breakout - any carbonation table will illustrate that potential. A keezer makes that a bit of a challenge as you can't really use the cabinet temperature as it drops so precipitously when the compressor kicks in.

Strapping a controller probe to the side of a keg with an effective insulator over it will allow use of the actual beer temperature to control the compressor, and the mass of the beer will add a high degree of hysteresis. One can use a very small controller differential setting which in turn will keep the beer temperature more constant thus reducing the opportunity for CO2 breakout...

Cheers!

 

[Ps6fsu]

lol! Ok, that's fine, but here's why I asked: lots of folks do a "burst carbonation" thing where they put a cold keg on ~30 psi CO2 for some number of hours - usually 24 for those who have done it successfully a few times - then drop the pressure to their dispensing setting and after a couple of days the beer is decently carbed.

But it's an inexact process to begin with, and then you get those cases where the person left the keg at that pressure for much longer, like 30 to 48 hours or more. The resulting over-carbed keg of green beer loaded with CO2 bite would then be constantly out-gassing CO2 when put into a "normal" dispensing system tuned for a middling carbonation level. Foam City, until the keg was tamed.

Otoh, the "set and forget" approach you used has the benefit of being unlikely to result in an overcarbed beer - which is what I wanted to check off.

So...Back to your question about temperature control...the larger the temperature differential the more likely there will be CO2 breakout - any carbonation table will illustrate that potential. A keezer makes that a bit of a challenge as you can't really use the cabinet temperature as it drops so precipitously when the compressor kicks in.

Strapping a controller probe to the side of a keg with an effective insulator over it will allow use of the actual beer temperature to control the compressor, and the mass of the beer will add a high degree of hysteresis. One can use a very small controller differential setting which in turn will keep the beer temperature more constant thus reducing the opportunity for CO2 breakout...

Cheers!

Thanks for the info. So you seem to think this is a temperature issue and not so much a balancing issue? Thats kind of what I was leaning towards. Maybe i need a better way to keep the lines cooler. It seems the top of the keezer is warmer than the bottom. I did make my own tower fan but it made the tower sweat like a pig because i keep it in the humid garage. It also didn't seem to help much either but I was pulling air from the top of the keezer and not down low so maybe thats why. I was actually considering just adding a collar to this thing and doing away with the tower altogether. This would eliminate one huge variable and keep everything contained inside.

 

[day_trippr]

So far we've been establishing the initial conditions
As for what root causes you may be experiencing: "Why Not Both?"

Seriously, a well-tuned dispensing system will be a pleasure to use as it will provide some margin against boundary issues (like mid-summer temperatures) so the first thing I'd do is use Mike Solty's calculator to effect. Or just go with 1 foot of 3/16" ID beer line per your dispensing CO2 psi. Either way, do that first. Coil the tubing atop the kegs if you have the z-axis space - I run twelve foot lines plus flow meters and have the slack zip-tied in neat coils that fit just inside the keg top rubbers.

You've already added the air-stirring fan and a tower cooler which are two steps in the right direction. Once you get the beer lines tuned you can then examine how tight your temperature control actually is and see if you can flatten it out if needed.

[edit] I do believe the "garage" bit of information is likely significant wrt "first pour syndrome" as the faucet and tower temperature are suspect if you're no longer running the tower cooler. As was mentioned way earlier in the thread a warm faucet will cause CO2 breakout until the beer cools it down.

But, again, if you're running short lines you're already on the verge of losing control of the captive CO2, so fix that and then figure out what else needs doing...

Cheers!

 

[Ps6fsu]

So far we've been establishing the initial conditions
As for what root causes you may be experiencing: "Why Not Both?"

Seriously, a well-tuned dispensing system will be a pleasure to use as it will provide some margin against boundary issues (like mid-summer temperatures) so the first thing I'd do is use Mike Solty's calculator to effect. Or just go with 1 foot of 3/16" ID beer line per your dispensing CO2 psi. Either way, do that first. Coil the tubing atop the kegs if you have the z-axis space - I run twelve foot lines plus flow meters and have the slack zip-tied in neat coils that fit just inside the keg top rubbers.

You've already added the air-stirring fan and a tower cooler which are two steps in the right direction. Once you get the beer lines tuned you can then examine how tight your temperature control actually is and see if you can flatten it out if needed.

[edit] I do believe the "garage" bit of information is likely significant wrt "first pour syndrome" as the faucet and tower temperature are suspect if you're no longer running the tower cooler. As was mentioned way earlier in the thread a warm faucet will cause CO2 breakout until the beer cools it down.

But, again, if you're running short lines you're already on the verge of losing control of the captive CO2, so fix that and then figure out what else needs doing...

Cheers!

Ok, im going to get longer lines. Ill go with the 3/16 bevlex 200 u recommended earlier in the thread. Thanks so much for your help.

 

[thomash]

Since you are reworking the system, you might as well check the o-ring on the beer out post. It’s possible that you have a slow leak allowing gas from the headspace into your beer line. The symptoms of which can look very similar to CO2 breakout.

 

[Kwitty]

Day_tripper has you going in the right direction. Better a longer line than too short. If your on the balancing edge a slight temp change can be the difference. A longer line sways it in your favor. Also... I place my temp probe on the side of a full water bottle and insulated with some foam. Same as I do on a fermenter. I then place it on the floor of the keezer. It gives the probe a thermal mass to help stabilize the temp. Otherwise my keezer cycles a lot! If it's just hanging there it changes with the air. This can lead to quicker temp changes and shorter cycles for the keezer. Bad for the electric bill, the compressor, and temp stabilization. Not saying this is the problem but it's not a help either!

 

[Sadu]

I'm going with temperature on this one, having had similar issues.

I have a kegerator with taps in the door. In summertime where I live, ambient gets pretty hot, like 80-90f. Despite the fridge, kegs and lines being super chilled, the taps outside the door just get hot. I'll get half a glass of foam from the first pour then it's fine. My lines are balanced per that calculator mentioned above.

I kinda deal with this problem since it's only for a couple of months per year. But my plan was to install long shanks on the taps and maybe a fan. The theory being that having more of the tap assembly inside the fridge vs outside will help keep the taps cooler.

In other words, it sounds like your tower and lines are cool, but if your taps are warm then that could be causing the foam and is a separate problem to solve.

What happens when you serve using a picnic tap that is kept inside the fridge? Might be a good way to eliminate some variables and see if your problem is line length/thickness or temperature related.

 

[Ps6fsu]

I'm going with temperature on this one, having had similar issues.

I have a kegerator with taps in the door. In summertime where I live, ambient gets pretty hot, like 80-90f. Despite the fridge, kegs and lines being super chilled, the taps outside the door just get hot. I'll get half a glass of foam from the first pour then it's fine. My lines are balanced per that calculator mentioned above.

I kinda deal with this problem since it's only for a couple of months per year. But my plan was to install long shanks on the taps and maybe a fan. The theory being that having more of the tap assembly inside the fridge vs outside will help keep the taps cooler.

In other words, it sounds like your tower and lines are cool, but if your taps are warm then that could be causing the foam and is a separate problem to solve.

What happens when you serve using a picnic tap that is kept inside the fridge? Might be a good way to eliminate some variables and see if your problem is line length/thickness or temperature related.

That's a great idea for troubleshooting. I just added a picnic tap to my order with the longer beer line. Thanks for the idea.

 

[Bassman2003]

I have a fridge setup and use set and forget. Been kegging for years and have accepted the quirks of home kegging. I always start and stop, drink that little bit and then pour the beer. If I do not do this I get a lot of foam in the pour. Why? I have the little pockets at the end of the beer line which make their way to sit right in front of the shank. Tap opens and the pocket creates all of the foam. My setup is designed with good beer line, Ventmatic taps as well as flow restrictors. Just kind of always been this way but easy enough to deal with.

I did just add a tap with the flo-gate knob and it is pretty nice to be able to dial it down.

 

[Ps6fsu]

I'm still on the fence about converting this thing to a collar type keezer. I like the look of the tower much better but if I need to use the tower cooler I'm not sure I can deal with the massive sweating due to it being in the humid garage. I also hate that I dont have a surface I can mount anything to inside. The collar would give me plenty of mounting surface to mount the fan and install a manifold. I also could add a 3rd keg if I wanted to and still use the hump for the 5lb Co2 tank. The collar would also help eliminate the temperature issues I may be having. The only issues I have with the collar is that I don't love the way it looks, would need to patch/cover the hole in the lid, and the 12"-14" drop in faucet height.

 

[Ps6fsu]

***UPDATE***

I ordered 12' of Bevlex 200 and they should be here this weekend. In the meantime, I did some experimenting. I took temperatures of the bottom of the freezer (32°), top of freezer (40°), and tower (53°) with no fans installed for a baseline. Then I turned on the fan to move the air around. An hour later, the temps were 32° at bottom, 35° at top, and 52° in tower. I rigged up a cpu fan and connected to a hose ending just underneath the hole in the tower opening. An hour later, the temps were 32° at bottom, 34° at top, and 38° in tower. The tower is sweating like crazy as expected but the temps are much more consistent now. I bought a 6' piece 3/8" thick EDPM pipe insulation that i am going to line the interior shell of the tower with when I have it all apart this weekend. Hopefully this helps with the sweating. I can't really test the foam issue yet though. I had the pressure at 10-11psi and saw tiny bubbles in the line so i turned it up to 14psi and noticed later that the lines were clear. Unfortunately, with my current 5' lines, the beer comes flying out way to fast. So for now, i put back at 10 so I can still drink. I also took the probe and wire-tied it to a beer can (with a piece of EDPM covering probe on exposed side and sat it on the hump. I assume the the compressor should kick on less often than when the probe was just dangling? If so, should I set my variance to 1 or 2 to ensure that when the compressor does kick on that it doesn/t run for hours trying to get the beer can temp back down 3 or 4 degrees?

 

[day_trippr]

I have a 5 channel temperature monitoring system on my keezer that illustrates how various probes react to temperature changes. Here's a plot from a couple of years ago showing a couple of compressor cycles.

The purple ("Keg") channel probe is strapped near the bottom of a keg and well-insulated from the cabinet air. You can see it changes temperature fairly "smoothly" compared to pretty much everything else going on. In particular, the two channels monitoring the air at the top and bottom of the keezer have markedly steep slopes when the compressor kicks on and off, which is pretty much expected in a keezer.

If I used one of those two to control the compressor you can see how quickly they cross the Keg temperature line once the compressor shuts off - that would be exactly where the compressor would get turned on again.

So my keezer control program uses the Keg channel to determine when to turn the compressor on and off as it's the easiest to interpret and results in the longest cycle times. The compressor typically turns on four times a day for 45-50 minutes even in the dog days of summer, and that's with a +/-1°F beer temperature differential allowed from Set Point.

The net result of all this geeky palaver is I have a very tame dispensing system that pours consistently well year 'round as the beer never sees much of a temperature change - and the tower cooler keeps the faucet end in the ball park. Which - btw - does sweat in the muggiest days of the year. No avoiding physics. That's what bar towels are for

Cheers!

 

[Ps6fsu]

Wow, that's an awesome chart right there. I hope I can achieve the same results. I'm going to try my best to insulate this tower to reduce the puddles but as long as im pouring beer with no foam bursts I am happy. Thanks so much for all your help. I will post an update again after I install the longer hoses.

 

[Ps6fsu]

Call me crazy but I had an idea to stop or at least greatly reduce the sweating of the tower and also help with cold air loss. I bought a tube of EPDM pipe insulation 3/4" thick, 2 7/8" OD, and 2 1/8" ID. I then bought a piece of 3" dryer vent and cut it to 2 1/8" diameter to fit inside the EPDM sleeve. My plan is to insert this into the tower to create a double walled insulated tower. Once I remove the faucets and shanks from the tower I'm going to drill out the holes needed. I still need to make some kind of a cap for it but I think it might work.

 

[Ps6fsu]

So I finished installing the 12' lines and my new double walled/ insulated tower this morning . I let it sit all day while I did yard work and i went to get my first beer and this is the result (see pic).... no waste. Also, the tower has zero sweat and it's 83 degrees here with 70% humidity. The only sweat I have is the faucets which I figured would happen. The tower is 46 degrees and the keezer is 40. I may have to shorten the lines to 10' tho. I had to turn the pressure up to 16 psi in order to have a decent rate of flow. Hopefully this continues but so far so good. Thanks everyone for the help.

 

[Yooper]

Hooray! I'm so pleased that it seems to be working. Let's keep our fingers crossed that we nailed the issue. The beer looks great- I wish I was there to drink it!

 

[Mic Carp]

Also, changing the psi of the regulator will cause that "break out" that day trippr mentions, so check to make sure you haven't done that if you're quick carbing the beer.

I have been experiencing this for years. assumed it was unavoidable since my keezer is an outdoor pet and it's warm here. Yooper, could you expand on your comment? I do quick carbing and didn't realized that it could be an issue. Thanks in advance

 

[Yooper]

I have been experiencing this for years. assumed it was unavoidable since my keezer is an outdoor pet and it's warm here. Yooper, could you expand on your comment? I do quick carbing and didn't realized that it could be an issue. Thanks in advance

With an outside keezer, you may have multiple issues. The taps warmer than the inside of the keezer, etc. But often when we burst carb, it could actually be overcarbed a bit and when you lower the pressure, it creates foam because it is always seeking equilibrium. The best way to handle that is to slightly undercarb with the burst carbing- say 30 psi for 24-36 hours- then lower the pressure to 12 psi (or whatever permanent pressure works for your system) and allow it to finish carbing up over the next day or so.

 

[Mic Carp]

With an outside keezer, you may have multiple issues. The taps warmer than the inside of the keezer, etc. But often when we burst carb, it could actually be overcarbed a bit and when you lower the pressure, it creates foam because it is always seeking equilibrium. The best way to handle that is to slightly undercarb with the burst carbing- say 30 psi for 24-36 hours- then lower the pressure to 12 psi (or whatever permanent pressure works for your system) and allow it to finish carbing up over the next day or so.

Thank you! I had a feeling about the tap temp, but it didn't occur to me about over carbing. I will learn to slow down (which will be easier now that i have more lkegs than will fit in my keezer

 

[Walleyeye]

My plan is to insert this into the tower to create a double walled insulated tower. Once I remove the faucets and shanks from the tower I'm going to drill out the holes needed. I still need to make some kind of a cap for it but I think it might work.

I explained this exact idea to the wife yesterday.