Can't decide B3 or Brew Magic

[Augie]

Grand Rapids?? Wouldn't it come out of Cali? Grand Rapids is not far from here only a few hours

 

[rmullins]

I was expecting Cali but when I got the UPS freight tracking number it was Grand Rapids MI

 

[Cliff897]

OK I am set on spending the cash on a system and can't weld, don't have time for the build, and want the easy route.

I can not decide between a Brew Magic system or the 1550 tippy dump with full digital from B3. The difference between the 2 are not much with shipping but I just cant decide. Anyone have any pro's and cons between them. I have searched, read and am still undecided. Thanks ahead of time

'

The wonderful people at http://stainlesssteelspec.com quoted me this lovely unit for just a scosh under Eight Grand
http://s1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/zydaco/?action=view&current=BC-50.jpg

How does learning a few hand tool skills look now?

Honest to god, If I were in the market for a soup-to-nuts system that would be right at the top of my list.

There's a German house doing something similar for maybe a little more $$.

 

[drmark50]

SankeyPankey,
I am in the same boat as you - have my eye on the brew magic and the B3 sculptures. I am fairy new to brewing (about a year) and has become a passion. I am doing AG with a make shift stand. I want a "real" brew stand and was looking more for a stand since I already have a nice heavy duty brew kettle and a keggle (my MLT is a cooler) - sort of upgrade. I can get the brew magic stand for under a grand. I thought the jump to the full Brew-Magic would be a little aggressive. I like the idea of gravity fed sparging, but don't want to be getting up and down a ladder - the Tippy is nice (but not gravity fed sparging). I wonder how fast the MLT fills with its height though.

I can afford a fully automated system - but still a tough pill to swallow! I don't think brewing is a phase for me, but nervous about going full throttle into a system. I do enjoy some minor DIY stuff, but time is a premium and it certainly isn't my forte'.

So when you posted about the brewmation I was very interested. I have the room for it, and also like the idea of it needed to be put on a table (I can easily and cheaply have a table made - the Amish do amazing work!) so I can store stuff underneath. I think I still have to warm up to brewing with electricity - it almost seems like cheating! It also doesn't have the typical brewery look. But what I love most about brewing is creating something, and not necessarily the equipment used. And to have a fully automated system that allows for great consistency and helps save on time is great. I also like not having to fill up on propane.

So I am really curious about the brewmation. Have you heard any reviews? I am very close to the Hudson Valley so would be easily able to pick it up. Any review would be great.

 

[Jipper]

our systems do have lots of options, but they are all ones that lots of homebrewers have asked for over the years, and we feel that more options are better so you can have the system you want and not just the one we feel like selling you.

BrewMagic and our BrewSculptures will both make great beer. Plenty of homebrewers have brewed NHC winners on both systems, and neither one will pour gold out the boil kettle on their own without you knowing what you are doing. But they will make things easier for you to brew on, by having the kettles set up in a small footprint, quality equipment, great designs, etc. Those thing help in repeatability, which is the key for learning your system and how to brew great beer. If your SG varies from batch to batch, how can you take that next step and refine your processes?

And lots of commercial breweries use the BrewSculptures for pilot breweries - Rogue, Stone, Russian River, Hales Ales, US Davis, White Labs ...

Hard piping vs. tubing - I prefer the tubing, because you can see the condition of your lines and make sure it's clean. With the hard mounted stuff you can't, and just have to trust that they get clean.

Tri-Clover vs Ball Valve - tri-clovers are expensive and not really needed until the cold-side of your wort/beer.

Space - sure if you take the 1000 BrewScuplture (which is tall) and put it against the BrewMagic (which is flat) then yeah it's going to seem even taller. But due to our options we have flat systems as well as a compact system, the 1550. Options are good things

In response to the "pros v cons" post ... not sure where those came from, but there are a few incorrect things mentioned. The only metal that touches the wort is stainless steel, unless you recirculate, in which case the wort is pumped through the copper sparge arm. The "awkward" ball valve placement is kind of out of nowhere, since you can just turn the kettles and have the valves face any way you want. And Ive never had the tippy latch "sieze" on mine.

The kettles are really thick and very high quality - I'd put them up against kegs any day of the week. By no means are they thin.

Shipping is just what we are getting charged from UPS freight, we have no control over that.

I'd be happy to answer any questions you guys have about the BrewSculptures.

 

[Augie]

Thanks for the response Jason, I like the tippy dump system and have had several messages back and forth via e-mail and I understand that is what you are being charged for shipping and there is no control. Its just hard to swallow $800+ for shipping even if both systems come out almost equal in price with shipping. Still researching though....

 

[Jipper]

Cool, glad to hear we are taking care of you. Let me know if I can help at all.

 

[Augie]

Free shipping???? LOL

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

In response to the "pros v cons" post ... not sure where those came from, but there are a few incorrect things mentioned. The only metal that touches the wort is stainless steel, unless you recirculate, in which case the wort is pumped through the copper sparge arm. The "awkward" ball valve placement is kind of out of nowhere, since you can just turn the kettles and have the valves face any way you want. And Ive never had the tippy latch "sieze" on mine.

On the B3 system I "interviewed" the HERMS coil was also copper. that said, on the BM I own, the RIMS chamber is also copper. New ones are all stainless. The only reason I consider this a "con" is by what you have mentioned with hoses. You just can't know the interior condition of the hard piping. I use heavy caustic cleaners for this which is why Stainless is a plus.

The valve I was referring to was the burner valve. My aplogies for not being clear.

And yes, with proper maintenance there is no resaon the tippy latch should sieze. But, if it does it's a PITA to free up.

None of this is meant to offend. And is just me own observations. The B3 is a solid system and worth every consideration. I just prefered the BM and still do despite it's flaws. And yes, it does have several too.

 

[The Pol]

Free shipping???? LOL

Now that is funny... :cross:

$800 is a conical or two :rockin:

 

[Jipper]

OH no offence taken - I'm sorry if i came off as confrontational! Questions are great And I'll answer any that come along.

Yes you are right, the coils are copper - I did forget about the chiller. But if you don't go with the SMART system (which I never use) then you don't have that issue. But really, copper is fine, it's brass that you want to avoid.

I find the burner valves to be fine. But then I have never really used another system, so I can't say for sure. I'll bring the valve placement up to the metal shop and see if we can't fix that ...

 

[Jipper]

Now that is funny... :cross:

I wish I got it.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

OH no offence taken - I'm sorry if i came off as confrontational! Questions are great And I'll answer any that come along.

Yes you are right, the coils are copper - I did forget about the chiller. But if you don't go with the SMART system (which I never use) then you don't have that issue. But really, copper is fine, it's brass that you want to avoid.

I find the burner valves to be fine. But then I have never really used another system, so I can't say for sure. I'll bring the valve placement up to the metal shop and see if we can't fix that ...

Yes, I agree completely that copper is fine. However, when using caustic cleaners such as Nitric acids the copper can be attacked, ever so slightly over time, which is why Stainless may be a preference.

 

[Augie]

I wish I got it.

He was referring to you response asking if there was anything else you could help with and I responded "Free Shipping"

 

[SankePankey]

I am going to go brew with the guy on Friday, so I'll get back to you about seeing it in action.

But, let me first say that I am a first time brewer and hope (as many do) to some day to turn it into a business. I have however been in quality commercial alcohol production (wine,port,hard ciders, and I ran a distillery, and high end distributor sales) for about 8 years, so not technically a newbie, but to beer I am (other than I drink good beer). Also, I have been known to be excessively wordy (see below) and opinionated (despite my sub-100 count posts on this forum...hehe). The b3's are definitely awesome though- great kettles and design. I had really chosen a 1550 B3 and was very close to putting the plastic down before I discovered the brewmation. Some people would say that the automation takes the fun out of it, but I feel very differently about it.

I am a fan of buying quality instruments for the job at hand. I am a musician, decent cook, etc. and I am always amazed at how (how does the adage go) "using the right tool for the right job" give the best results. Not that you can't jerry-rig a masterpiece, but why p@ssyfoot around if you don't have to? Especially since I got such a ridiculous quote on a stainless stand from a local welder ($1500) for a brutus clone. --By the way, if you do end up going with a stand, I'd have one custom made by the synergymetalworks.com guys. I have their fermenter and it is abs. top notch welding. From my research, they run a hard bargain for stainless metal work (even with shipping).

Anyhoo, the other thing that struck me about the automation of the brewmation is that since it's so plug and play, you could literally brew every day and it wouldn't be that bad. That's the idea I am going for. I would rather spend more $ for fitting brewing into my life than go b@lls to the wall as a DIY wizard (basically just to get away from SWMBO!)...:cross: (just kidding) I really do hope to spend my time after my gear is assembled simply brewing and caring about recipes, technique, and such and not caring at all about gear (like my saxophone and playing music). In my opinion, the brewmation would be even more repeatable/reliable/easy to use than a B3 or a BM. The whole brewing with electric thing has been pretty much settled regarding scorching of wort, as long as you use the right element (low density, or ultra low density) its not an issue. Besides, if you are doing RIMS like a BM, you'll be using an element anyways, maybe not as much (just raising temps during mash recirc), but still... The only problem I can see for me re: electric is power outages. I know that at one point I will suffer a problem because of a power outage, but I think that's the price to pay for not having to fill propane and the price (electricity is far less $$ per brew).

The other thing is the sparging with his peristaltic pumps. It looks like the best thing since gravity sparging (except for the plastic housing mentioned before, I'll let you know how that looks when I see it in person). And, there is simply no brewhouse I have seen with such a small footprint, and this one is even bigger at 17.5 gal capacity.

There are no reviews really. The guy used to make brewmations out of food grade plastic (like his electric HLT on his site) but no one would buy them because of that, so he went with stainless at a higher price... good move. They have only been made that way starting in 09. He has made several for brewpubs, etc. that are bigger and that is why you see on his site that he will custom make a 1.5 or 2 bbl.

Anyhoo, if you have more questions, PM me and I'll send you the file he sent me of the 20 questions I asked him with his detailed responses. From his descriptions, the thing is a Ferrari. No boil overs (important for me to brew inside), no foaming (due to the floating sparging), just effortless.. seems to me anyways.

I'll get back to you after Friday.

 

[SankePankey]

Also, the BM is far from Flat and in their own videos, they stand on a step stool to dump grains or use a friend (I don't have any friends..bbbahahaaaa)

Hey, JP, why don't you guys build a 1100 with a tippy dump on the MLT like some of the guys here do DIY? I really think that would sell a lot.

-Peace.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Also, the BM is far from Flat and in their own videos, they stand on a step stool to dump grains or use a friend (I don't have any friends..bbbahahaaaa)

Hey, JP, why don't you guys build a 1100 with a tippy dump on the MLT like some of the guys here do DIY? I really think that would sell a lot.

-Peace.

Yeah. My friend is a Shop Vac.

 

[rmullins]

From what I can see it would require a pretty significant change to the overall frame to be able to have the tippy dump action on the 1100.

 

[passedpawn]

I also do not like the pumps. The Peristaltic Pumps are used to meter the fluids during the flow...

From memory I think the site said an hour to pump 10 gallons. Forget that.

 

[SankePankey]

Yes 11.6 gal/hr for one pump. The brewmation has more than one and as per the spec sheet for it, they are 5 GPM. I'll have to settle this on friday when I go brew with him.

The only time I see that being an issue is if you wanted to pump feed your fermenter- which I am interested in gravity feeding. You want slow and steady pumps for sparging etc. right? You don't want fast filling of the BK risking hot side aeration, right? Anyhoo, if it's all automated anyways, I guess I don't have to care much. Just carry a timer for hopping and chilling (brewpal on my iPhone... tee hee I like gadgets!).

From my conversations with him, his brew time from start to finish is 6 hrs, so I don't know if the brewmation is 11.6 Gallon per hour, maybe just the one pump on it's own.

They ain't cheap, either, on their own.

I will post on this thread with my finds after Friday. Cheers.

 

[SankePankey]

From what I can see it would require a pretty significant change to the overall frame to be able to have the tippy dump action on the 1100.

I have seen some pretty slick 1 tier tippy dump builds on this forum from DIY welders. Reeally slick. I'm sure the morebeer welders who create works of art are up to it.

Let me find the link.... here it is. This thing is freekin awesome:

http://picasaweb.google.com/cdburg/BrewStandBuildDays16And17#5223034894672524818

Pretty much a 1100 with a 1550 tippy dump (sort of).


(I actually contacted this guy and asked him to make me one. Nope. Dern!)

 

[remilard]

B3 has made at least one flat sculpture with a dippy dump, because Scott Lothamer has a 2100 with a tippy dump.

Pretty sure I've read or heard that they said they wouldn't do it again. If you wave enough money at them, maybe you can change their mind.

Srsly, get a shop vac though. It takes me about 3 minutes to suck all the grain out of the mash into the shop vac, dump the shop vac, and hose it out on the driveway. About the same effort involved in using a dippy dump, I would imagine.

 

[Jipper]

From my conversations with him, his brew time from start to finish is 6 hrs, so I don't know if the brewmation is 11.6 Gallon per hour, maybe just the one pump on it's own.

Which is the same time (give or take) of a BrewSculpture or BM. You can brew once a day on any of these systems, so I'm not sure how the AutoBrew thing is any different or special in that regard.

 

[SankePankey]

I know and thanks. I've read several posts about using one you've wrote and they turned a light bulb on. I plan on using one, so thanks. Although, a shop vac's caliber of scintillating repartee is seriously lacking, and I will still have to find a friend to hold one.

It would be easy then to feed the spent grains to the chickens out of the vac base. I eat the best eggs in the world.!

 

[SankePankey]

Which is the same time (give or take) of a BrewSculpture or BM. You can brew once a day on any of these systems, so I'm not sure how the AutoBrew thing is any different or special in that regard.

I was referring to the quote about how slow or fast the pumps are. The literature for the brewmation says something other than 11.6 GPH like the page for his pumps says, it says more like 5 GPM. Also, what I feel is that the less you have to babysit a brew session, the better in my mind- which may not be up other people's alley, but it is mine (I got horses to ride, saxophones to play...)

Here's the lit from the brewmation site:

After the system is set up and the water and grains are added, the micro-processor takes over. The liquor is heated to the strike temperature and the precise amount of liquor is transferred to the mash tun. The mash temperature is maintained by the microprocessor for the entire mash time. The sparge process then begins and continues until the photo eye on the kettle site glass signals the appropriate volume is collected. The kettle heaters are then engaged bringing the wort to a boil. The microprocessor will then alert the brewer with a buzzer indicating boiling has commenced. At the same time the heat is automatically lowered to avoid a boil over. Boiling is continued for the set time and the heaters are turned off. The buzzer sounds indicating the sessions is complete. Chilling is then carried out by the brewer.

(he didn't also mention that you have to physically put the sparge lid in place after mash in, but..)

I'll say that's quite a bit more automated than a B3 or a BM. This is the lit for the full auto version. The semi-auto version of the brewmation is pretty much exactly the same automation as a B3 and a BM, sans the temp logging on a BM. Neither of those systems measure sparge water for you, prevent boil overs (not sure bout that), have sight gauges, pilot lights (also not sure about that on a BM), etc. all which in my mind (and I stress, only in my mind) mean that you want to sit by the brewhouse the most of the time to brew on them.

For arguments sake, lets say you operate one of these in a pico-brewpub. You could measure out the grains and other stuff, start the brew session and have the line cook dump the hops in at said timer value (or he's fired!) and literally not have to be there for the entire brew session until wort chilling. Now that's automation! You could be free to run other aspects of the business and just keep an eye on your timers and make sure you're back well enough in time to chill the wort.

I will mention again that I have no 1st hand experience with any of these, its just conjecture.

 

[Jipper]

If you get the Diggy Smart System you can do 3/4ths of those things without the worry of your electric eye being knocked out of place, or your micro-processor going out. Diggy smart has float switches, burner controls, all that stuff. Though i will say some of that stuff is pretty neat. I just don't know how I feel about brewing in a triple-dip sink. That being said, I don't have any of the Diggy stuff on my 1550, because I like brewing. I enjoy looking at thermometers, and I would never just walk away from a brew session. That's not brewing to me, that's production.

 

[SankePankey]

Also, I will mention that the price of a no added options B3 1100 brewhouse with full digital smart is $4200. Thats the same price as a full auto brewmation at 17.5 gal. The semi auto brewmation is $3650 for the same level of automation as a B3. Both are great 1 tier systems. One is cheaper (and bigger kettles, less footprint, doesn't take 12 weeks to build, etc. all which I've mentioned previously).

I really like the B3 and was very close to buying one, but just like the brewmation a little better for the money. I'll get back to everyone after Friday's brew session. I hope to shed some objective clarity on this.

 

[SankePankey]

I just don't know how I feel about brewing in a triple-dip sink.

Can you say why?

Only reason I think is cause you can't easily replace a kettle if need be. That surely is one of the great things about a B3, that you can do 20 gal kettles in the future if you want to upgrade. A big advantage over a BM, IMO.

Oh, and I wasn't aware that the full diggy smart had burner controls with pilot lights... sorry.

 

[SankePankey]

That's not brewing to me, that's production.

Yes, I think a lot of people would think that too, just not me. I can understand that point of view, though. Less zen with the whole thing. I will say though that I am a person who has a whole bunch of hobbies and interests and I seek to fit them into my life instead of fitting my life into them. That's my idea.

Cheers.

 

[Jipper]

Can you say why?

Only reason I think is cause you can't easily replace a kettle if need be. That surely is one of the great things about a B3, that you can do 20 gal kettles in the future if you want to upgrade. A big advantage over a BM, IMO.

Oh, and I wasn't aware that the full diggy smart had burner controls with pilot lights... sorry.

Can I say why? No, not really - just a feeling. I do like the creativity that it took to put them to that use, and I guess you can say the same thing about a soup pot for brewing, but to me a sink is for dirty things. I also have issues with using Q-tips to clean cuts with (because to me they go in your ear and nose), so it could just be my view that's messed up