Cannot overcome my Hazy IPA oxidation problem!!

[BlkWater_brewer]

Don't really care to use physical chemistry fundamentals. Let me just say that from my experience bottling beer without head additional co2 formed has no place to go into a full bottle and stays dissolved in the liquid and can lead to gushers. If there are too many excess fermentable sugars, with no room to escape to (head space) you will have a bottle bomb. Especially if you recycle bottles.

That being said, there is no commercial bottling equipment that doesn't utilize head space in the process. No it doesn't mean there is oxygen present, CO2 is used to create a layer of foam to prevent oxygen from entering the bottle before capping. Same process used in canning.

So that is my overall opinion based on experience, what anyone does with it is of no importance to me.

 

[Bilsch]

Don't really care to use physical chemistry fundamentals. Let me just say that from my experience bottling beer without head additional co2 formed has no place to go into a full bottle and stays dissolved in the liquid and can lead to gushers.

Interesting. When bottling I always fill then to within 1/4" of the top, or less, and cap on the foam. They always carbonate just fine and have had no problems opening or pouring the beer. But then I've only been brewing for about 32 years so what do I know.

To be honest though I don't bottle that often but just don't see the reduced headspace to be an issue.

 

[schematix]

Don't really care to use physical chemistry fundamentals. Let me just say that from my experience bottling beer without head additional co2 formed has no place to go into a full bottle and stays dissolved in the liquid and can lead to gushers.

The CO2 is formed in solution and only leaves solution to reach equilibrium with the headspace. The pressure of CO2 in the beer is the same as the in the headspace.

When you say gusher, do you mean it just spills over a little bit, or you mean a gusher like a volcano?

The only issue i can see with overfilled bottles and a bottle exploding is if there was nearly 0 head space and you did something like bottled cold, and let it get quite hot. The pressure exerted by water expansion due to temperature is significant. Water is dense stuff to begin with, unlike gasses.

 

[dyqik]

A couple of hypotheses:

A head space will allow a bit more CO2 to come out of solution and equilibrate if the bottle is a bit above the equilibrium temperature for the amount of CO2 in the bottle. That will help a little with what is effectively over carbonation.

Also, when you pop the top of the bottle, a pressure wave will travel through the beer, bringing CO2 out of solution rapidly and possibly causing foaming. With more headspace, the pressure wave is less sharp, and is a bit less likely to gush over. You're probably familiar with this from the effect of tapping a bottle on the table or slapping the top of a bottle.

Neither of these will make a classic infection gusher, but they could help a beer foam over, if it's overcarbed for the serving temperature. So, yes, I could see ways headspace would help with (effectively) overcarbed beer. But I don't think that that's that likely with this style, which is usually carbed fairly low.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

A couple of hypotheses:

A head space will allow a bit more CO2 to come out of solution and equilibrate if the bottle is a bit above the equilibrium temperature for the amount of CO2 in the bottle. That will help a little with what is effectively over carbonation.

Also, when you pop the top of the bottle, a pressure wave will travel through the beer, bringing CO2 out of solution rapidly and possibly causing foaming. With more headspace, the pressure wave is less sharp, and is a bit less likely to gush over. You're probably familiar with this from the effect of tapping a bottle on the table or slapping the top of a bottle.

Neither of these will make a classic infection gusher, but they could help a beer foam over, if it's overcarbed for the serving temperature. So, yes, I could see ways headspace would help with (effectively) overcarbed beer. But I don't think that that's that likely with this style, which is usually carbed fairly low.

I should have stuck to the Probrewer sight - things are done different commercially. That is what I am used to now. However in all my HB Club time I have never in my life heard of filling a bottle to the top. I don't even know what the original post was about. Brew On!!

 

[schematix]

ugh this track pad kills me. how do you unlike a post that accidentally clicked while scrolling?

 

[dyqik]

I should have stuck to the Probrewer sight - things are done different commercially. That is what I am used to now. However in all my HB Club time I have never in my life heard of filling a bottle to the top. I don't even know what the original post was about. Brew On!!

It's about filling the bottle to the top to prevent oxidation of the beer due to oxygen left in the headspace.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

It's about filling the bottle to the top to prevent oxidation of the beer due to oxygen left in the headspace.

Then filling it and capping before the foam falls. But you still have to purge with CO2 first. Purge a few bottles, then fill and cap, repeat. CO2 is heavier than air so it will remain in the bottle for a short time. So purging and not over filling is the only answer.

 

[dyqik]

Then filling it and capping before the foam falls. But you still have to purge with CO2 first. Purge a few bottles, then fill and cap, repeat. CO2 is heavier than air so it will remain in the bottle for a short time. So purging and not over filling is the only answer.

You really can't rely on CO2 staying in the bottles to prevent oxidation while you fill other ones. CO2 doesn't prevent O2 ingress, as the diffusion rate of O2 into CO2 is too high - you'll get a few ppm of O2 into the bottle in the time it takes to fill another bottle. My calculations are elsewhere on this forum, wrt to 6 gallon carboys, but simple scaling is enough to convert that to a 12 oz bottle.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I strongly suggest Kunze https://www.vlb-berlin.org/en/technology-brewing-and-malting He goes into great detail about bottle/can/keg, anything filling.

 

[doug293cz]

I strongly suggest Kunze https://www.vlb-berlin.org/en/technology-brewing-and-malting He goes into great detail about bottle/can/keg, anything filling.

A link to a site that sells the reference for ~$165 isn't particularly useful to a group of homebrewers. Links to the actual information would be much more helpful.

Brew on

 

[Die_Beerery]

A link to a site that sells the reference for ~$165 isn't particularly useful to a group of homebrewers. Links to the actual information would be much more helpful.

Brew on

This is the only book any brewer should have though!
The information lies within... I don't know why people think information is always free.. However! Here is a tidbit from my blog....
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/low-oxygen-bottle-filling/

 

[doug293cz]

You really can't rely on CO2 staying in the bottles to prevent oxidation while you fill other ones. CO2 doesn't prevent O2 ingress, as the diffusion rate of O2 into CO2 is too high - you'll get a few ppm of O2 into the bottle in the time it takes to fill another bottle. My calculations are elsewhere on this forum, wrt to 6 gallon carboys, but simple scaling is enough to convert that to a 12 oz bottle.

Do you remember where you posted the calcs? I'm really interested in looking them over, as I've done some cals on O2/CO2 content myself.

The benefit of CO2 purging is only for the limited exposure that the beer gets while the bottle is actually undergoing the filling process. Even if O2 does diffuse back into the bottle while being filled, the O2 partial pressure will be lower than if the bottles hadn't been CO2 purged. So, less O2 absorption during the time it takes to fill. Is this significant? I don't know. Once the fill tube is removed from the bottle, the headspace resulting will fill with air. If you a filling with carbonated beer, ideally the beer will foam enough to fill the headspace completely, thus displacing any air, and then you can cap on foam to avoid O2 entrapment in the headspace. If bottling flat beer, getting foam is unlikely, and in this case you have to hope the yeast convert the O2 to compounds that won't eventually oxidize the beer.

Brew on

 

[dyqik]

Do you remember where you posted the calcs? I'm really interested in looking them over, as I've done some cals on O2/CO2 content myself.

The benefit of CO2 purging is only for the limited exposure that the beer gets while the bottling is actually undergoing the filling process. Even if O2 does diffuse back into the bottle while being filled, the O2 partial pressure will be lower than if the bottles hadn't been CO2 purged. So, less O2 absorption during the time it takes to fill. Is this significant? I don't know. Once the fill tube is removed from the bottle, the headspace resulting will fill with air. If you a filling with carbonated beer, ideally the beer will foam enough to fill the headspace completely, thus displacing any air, and then you can cap on foam to avoid O2 entrapment in the headspace. If bottling flat beer, getting foam is unlikely, and in this case you have to hope the yeast convert the O2 to compounds that won't eventually oxidize the beer.

Brew on

Here was my best attempt. There's a typo in the second paragraph - the diffusion constant should be about 0.14 at 5 C.

 

[doug293cz]

This is the only book any brewer should have though!
The information lies within... I don't know why people think information is always free.. However! Here is a tidbit from my blog....
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/low-oxygen-bottle-filling/

That's a bit of an elitist sounding assertion about the Kunze book. It is without a doubt an extremely useful reference, but saying it is the only worthwhile reference smacks of religious fervor. And, HBT is all about providing free information to the homebrew community. So, linking to paid material isn't in the spirit of HBT.

Very interesting article by the way. Curious as to why you test for DO in "aged" beers. Isn't the assumption that any DO at the time of packaging will react with components of the beer (causing staling) which would consume the DO? Also, are you aware of any quantitative data on how much DO beer can pick up in 10 - 20 seconds of exposure to air (as in during bottle filling)?

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Here was my best attempt. There's a typo in the second paragraph - the diffusion constant should be about 0.14 at 5 C.

Thanks for the link. Should have showed you mine, since I asked to see yours. Here's one of the most ambitious.

Brew on

 

[Die_Beerery]

IT was a joke, my fault for it not taken as so.
It's kind of a catch 22 though isn't it... If I spouted off numbers you would ask for my source, so instead I listed my source that has the numbers and didn't spout numbers..

Right, however DO/TPO will always be there. Granted my meter doesn't have the resolution, but people always want DO numbers for "proof" Now when you exhaust fermentation derived suliftes, you will start gaining DO from the bottle cap ingress. I *think* my last video shows this.

Kunze or Narziss should have some answers to your question, I can skim it over, when I get a chance.

 

[Scturo]

To clarify, I fill my bottles with carbonated beer to the point of slightly overflowing with beer or foam, and cap on foam. Depending on how carbonated my beer is, there will be a 3/4" to almost no headspace at all. Not saying this is the best or only way to avoid O2 entrapment, just that it has worked for me.

 

[doug293cz]

IT was a joke, my fault for it not taken as so.
It's kind of a catch 22 though isn't it... If I spouted off numbers you would ask for my source, so instead I listed my source that has the numbers and didn't spout numbers..

Right, however DO/TPO will always be there. Granted my meter doesn't have the resolution, but people always want DO numbers for "proof" Now when you exhaust fermentation derived suliftes, you will start gaining DO from the bottle cap ingress. I *think* my last video shows this.

Kunze or Narziss should have some answers to your question, I can skim it over, when I get a chance.

When numbers are provided, and the source is given, the usual assumption is that the numbers were transferred correctly from the source, and the reader doesn't have to have the source material to use the numbers. So, not really a catch 22. In the rare case that someone tries to take advantage of the assumption of correctness, and falsifies the info from the source, once they are outed their credibility is forever lost. Thus most authors are very careful to correctly quote their sources, and the assumption of correctness is almost always warranted.

I'll admit that I haven't had a chance to view the videos yet, so maybe it will make more sense after I see them.

Brew on

 

[tempestam83]

So I think I may be on to something with a few tweaks. This was bottled exactly one month ago. I've never had one of these NEIPAs last this long. Two weeks MAX!

The hop aroma may have faded a little, but it still tastes fresh and the color is perfect.

The sulfur aroma also faded from the 1/8 tsp SMB I added at bottling. This is a three gallon batch with lots of late hops and dry hop during fermentation.

From everything I've read on here I'm thinking my 15 minutes addition and SMB additions at mash and at bottling may have done the trick.

 

[menossi]

Looks like you have to have credentials or purchase the article

You can get the pdf here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222839054_The_chemistry_of_beer_aging_-_A_critical_review

 

[Jwin]

You can get the pdf here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222839054_The_chemistry_of_beer_aging_-_A_critical_review

Thank you

 

[sftokarski]

When I was bottling, this happened to every single IPA I ever tried to make. They went into the bottle looking and tasting *exactly* how they were supposed to, but after carbonation they were amber colored, bitter, and had lost 100% of the hop flavor and aroma. The only thing that fixed it for me was switching to kegging.

 

[Brew_G]

I've had the same issue as the OP noticed with my first two attempts at NE IPAs, though that picture was really shocking. Mine haven't been that dramatically different from bottling to first pour.




This is more like my issue - color, aroma, and flavor problems are exactly the same as mine. I posted this in a different thread, but here's what my most recent attempt looked like:

Bottling day. Grain to bottle in about ten days:
View attachment 381761

Day 8 after bottling. Carbed up nicely, if maybe slightly overcarbed:
View attachment 381763

The second picture comes out a bit darker than it really is, but the difference is remarkable. I haven't had any similar issues with other beers other than my NE IPAs, and I'm starting to think that the massive hop addition at 170°F for 30 minutes plays a big part.

I'll be building a kegerator in the next few weeks, so it'll be interesting to see if I still have the same problem with these beers in my new setup. But I've got to brew an RIS first...

Just an update now that I’ve kegged my first NE IPA.

Beer was brewed on October 20 and racked to the keg on October 29. No closed transfer - keg was filled with StarSan that was pushed out with CO2 via picnic tap. Racked with auto siphon.

Here’s a picture of the FG sample:

View attachment IMG_7404.jpg

And one from November 3, which is 14 days after brewing and five days after going into the keg. The beer had some real burn/bite to it at this point, so I pulled samples daily to get the yeast out. Color is still where I️ want it and the aroma and flavor have remained at a completely acceptable level. Just a completely different result than my previously noted NE IPAs, and as I️ get more experience with kegging I’m hoping my finished beers will get even better.

View attachment IMG_7446.jpg


Edit: Got home from work today and pulled a pint from the keg. Burn has let up and it’s drinking really nicely. Even the little lady gave it a thumbs up! The lighting doesn’t do the color much justice - it's quite a nice-looking beer.

View attachment IMG_7462.jpg

 

[filthyastronaut]

Planning to brew a New England IPA in a couple days. It's gonna be 100% MO, around 7% ABV, 130 ppm Cl and 77 ppm SO4, with Centennial, Simcoe, and Citra. Also Nottingham, which I know isn't typical for this style, but it's what I have.

I'm trying to get down a low-oxygen bottling process without having the convenience of a CO2 tank. To do this, I'm going to bottle straight from primary, dosing each bottle with priming solution with a syringe, in hopes that no transfer will keep a reliable CO2 blanket on top of the fermenter as I bottle. I will also do only one dry hop on day 2 or 3 of fermentation both for the benefit of biotransformation and so the beer purges itself after I open the fermenter. I will use oxygen absorbing bottle caps, so that any O2 in the headspace of the bottle would ideally be scavenged by yeast or absorbed. I plan to bottle after about a week in primary.

I'll set aside a six pack, and starting at the 2 week point, I'm gonna have a bottle every week for 6 weeks and take notes and pictures, and post them here.

Wish me luck!

 

[KLITE]

Has anyone ever tried using ascorbic acid to minimize oxidative stress?

 

[Chrispy92]

Subbed in here as I've got my first two NEIPAs in primary at the moment..

My plan is to use a small co2 bottle to purge each vessel during the second dry hop/ during cold crash / and purge each bottle before filling.

I will bottle one without a purge as I normally would for a hoppy IPA (never had any rapid oxidation issues)

Also I've read the percentage of oats may be influencing rapid colour change in these beers. As a result I brewed them with minimal oats subbing wheat malt, flaked wheat and flaked barley to create mouthfeel and haze.

I'll keep everyone posted! Wish me luck!

 

[filthyastronaut]

Planning to brew a New England IPA in a couple days. It's gonna be 100% MO, around 7% ABV, 130 ppm Cl and 77 ppm SO4, with Centennial, Simcoe, and Citra. Also Nottingham, which I know isn't typical for this style, but it's what I have.

I'm trying to get down a low-oxygen bottling process without having the convenience of a CO2 tank. To do this, I'm going to bottle straight from primary, dosing each bottle with priming solution with a syringe, in hopes that no transfer will keep a reliable CO2 blanket on top of the fermenter as I bottle. I will also do only one dry hop on day 2 or 3 of fermentation both for the benefit of biotransformation and so the beer purges itself after I open the fermenter. I will use oxygen absorbing bottle caps, so that any O2 in the headspace of the bottle would ideally be scavenged by yeast or absorbed. I plan to bottle after about a week in primary.

I'll set aside a six pack, and starting at the 2 week point, I'm gonna have a bottle every week for 6 weeks and take notes and pictures, and post them here.

Wish me luck!

I knew Nottingham was an unusual choice for this style, but turns out it dropped out way too clear and it the beer is dry to the point of accentuating the relatively low IBUs. I think I'll give this another go, but with WLP 644, in a couple of weeks. Probably increase Cl, possibly decrease SO4 as well.

 

[TrojanAnteater]

When I was bottling, this happened to every single IPA I ever tried to make. They went into the bottle looking and tasting *exactly* how they were supposed to, but after carbonation they were amber colored, bitter, and had lost 100% of the hop flavor and aroma. The only thing that fixed it for me was switching to kegging.

Same thing started happening to me all of a sudden a few years ago. Had produced plenty good batches of pales, saisons, etc that were light in color then all of a sudden a bunch of batches in a row tasted great at bottling but went 100% terribly oxidized after only a week or two bottle conditioning. Bought a new bottling wand and autosiphon and started to make sure I'm filling bottle to overflow and the problem resolved.

 

[malhal]

Here is an interesting tip to prevent the bottle oxidation causing the browning. Use plastic bottles and first fill with normal head room, then squeeze so beer comes to top and put cap on, then as carbonates the CO2 will fill the head room. Found here:
Haven't tried with NEIPA yet.