Or have to pour out 5+ gallons of beer because aceto, lacto, pedio, and ??? laced starter wort turned your beer into a foul, stinking, though still not poisonous, swill.
The rational for pressure canning has been posted, several times.
Canning Wort for Starters
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The rational for pressure canning has been posted, several times.
Exbeerienced
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I suppose that is the main reason to pressure can.
Your previous answer could be taken by some (mainly those types that like to buck trends, and tend to think other types are overly concerned about things), that no ill effects have ever come from not pressure canning wort. It was a comment more on the general pat answer of 'nothing harmful to humans can grow in beer' that is so often bandied about. I really don't care if it is true or not, because there are plenty of things that can grow in a beer to make it so unpalatable that most people wouldn't drink it in the first place. Which is good, because it means more of that sour, putrid, delicious beer for me.
I know that miniscule quantities are harmful, but I wonder if enough BT could be produced in 1-2 liters of wort, so that when diluted into 5-10 gallons, it is harmful. I would assume the yeast would eat the new sugars in the main batch much faster than the bot bacteria would. Not sure whether bot can eat the unfermentables that remain if the beer were some style that allowed bot to be active. Probably best not to test it.
Cooking the wort in the jar again in a water bath a few hours before use will denature the bot toxin, if you are worried about it.
pola0502ds
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How long will a can of wort thats been in a pressure cooker sit on a shelf before it goes bad?
a few months? a few years?
a few months? a few years?
BBL_Brewer
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Years. As long as the seal isn't compromised, they will last a very long time.
rico567
Well-Known Member
The question of harmful things ability to grow in beer (or in anything else) must be carefully distinguished when we're discussing canning.
First, we must distinguish between an ærobic (in the presence of air / oxygen) environment, and an anærobic (in the absence of air / oxygen) environment.
The brewing environment (as opposed to life in a canning jar, or a can of soup) is an ærobic environment, in which ærobic organisms grow. None of those that will grow in beer under these conditions are known to have deleterious effects on humans.
The canning environment is created specifically to keep any and all organisms from growing in the food in the container. The container is sealed = anærobic. The specific danger (mentioned in this thread by Ed Wort), which one will find discussed in any canning manual, is that the genus Clostridium specifically will grow in the absence of air. If viable spores of Clostridium botulinum are canned, and they grow in there, you can become very sick, or die (as in = stop breathing).
A familiar relative is the organism producing Tetanus. This is caused when spores of another species of the same genus, Clostridium tetani, gains entry to the body below skin level by such as a puncture wound, rather than a simple cut. The lower oxygen (anærobic) conditions can enable the spores to grow, and its toxins producing the condition, otherwise known as "lockjaw" (which an also be fatal).
This is not an area for experimentation. Water bath canning is safe only for high acid foods such as tomatoes. Follow the wort canning instructions specifically as given in Ed Wort's post and don't cut any corners.
First, we must distinguish between an ærobic (in the presence of air / oxygen) environment, and an anærobic (in the absence of air / oxygen) environment.
The brewing environment (as opposed to life in a canning jar, or a can of soup) is an ærobic environment, in which ærobic organisms grow. None of those that will grow in beer under these conditions are known to have deleterious effects on humans.
The canning environment is created specifically to keep any and all organisms from growing in the food in the container. The container is sealed = anærobic. The specific danger (mentioned in this thread by Ed Wort), which one will find discussed in any canning manual, is that the genus Clostridium specifically will grow in the absence of air. If viable spores of Clostridium botulinum are canned, and they grow in there, you can become very sick, or die (as in = stop breathing).
A familiar relative is the organism producing Tetanus. This is caused when spores of another species of the same genus, Clostridium tetani, gains entry to the body below skin level by such as a puncture wound, rather than a simple cut. The lower oxygen (anærobic) conditions can enable the spores to grow, and its toxins producing the condition, otherwise known as "lockjaw" (which an also be fatal).
This is not an area for experimentation. Water bath canning is safe only for high acid foods such as tomatoes. Follow the wort canning instructions specifically as given in Ed Wort's post and don't cut any corners.
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Can anyone recommend a make/model of pressure cooker that would be ideal for this project? I also see this as a way of saving some money instead of using DME on my bigger starters.
EdWort
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This is what I have. It cans 7 quarts at a time.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000BYCFU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
It's back up to $79, but you could have had it for $59 as was posted a while back.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000BYCFU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
It's back up to $79, but you could have had it for $59 as was posted a while back.
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rico567
Well-Known Member
This is what I have. It cans 7 quarts at a time.
Amazon.com: Presto 1781 23-Quart Aluminum Pressure Cooker/Canner: Home & Garden
It's back up to $79, but you could have had it for $59 as was posted a while back.
I can endorse this canner. We have an older (like 35 years) version of this, will do 7 quarts or a lot more pints stacked. Simple, reliable, parts readily available.
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I have a run-of-the-mill Mirro. I use it for canning tomatoes, spaghetti sauce, DME, venison, and so on. I don't see my specific model anymore, but it's very similar to this: Amazon.com: T-fal/wearever 92112 Pressure Cooker/canner 12 Qt: Home & Garden
Remember, you don't want a pressure cooker. You want a pressure canner. That means that you have to get the higher pressure, and it must fit in quart jars. Mine fits 7 quart jars in it, or 14 pint jars.
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This may have been covered already but when canning the wort do we place the cover on and then tighten the ring snug or loose? If loose then I assume that we would tighten snug after cooling down. I have not canned anything before so this will be a new experience for me.
I also assume we cannot reuse the lids or the rings once they have been canned.
I also assume we cannot reuse the lids or the rings once they have been canned.
rico567
Well-Known Member
In order:
You tighten the rings down before you put the jars in the canner. Don't worry- anything that needs to escape from the jar while processing is going on will get past the seal just fine. Remove, and the vacuum created in the headspace by cooling will seal the lid with a little "tink" sound (you can check that the lid is down by pressing). When storing, a lot of people will remove the rings so they can use them on later batches, and / or so they don't rust and get stuck.
You cannot reuse the lids.
You can reuse the rings, which is why they sell lids alone as well as lids & rings (don't try it after they rust much, or they'll be hell to remove).
If you're new to canning, I strongly recommend that you read up. The equivalent to Palmer's How to Brew for canning is The Ball Blue Book. Download the pdf file here: http://www.filestube.com/b/ball+blue+book
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This is interesting because I've reused lids (and bands of course) quite a few times and I've only ever had one failed seal (I had hacked it slightly with a knife when opening it).
While doing some google searches, the only reason I can find to NOT reuse them is: a failed seal. If the seal fails, I don't use the product.
If you do this with expensive produce, I can see it being an expensive waste. If it's a fail with canned wort, the waste is minimal.
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't reuse them. That's one's personal call.
Of course if it looks deformed, dried or hacked, don't use it
M_C
maffewl
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I'm looking into this as well and have tried to lurk my way through as many threads as possible. I must say, all the botulism talk has me second guessing. This is the first that I've read that I need a pressure canner, not a pressure cooker. So a pressure cooker will not work? Also, let's say I get a pressure canner, and do everything like the 15 psi @ 15 min, seal is depressed, everythings good to go... put it in the fridge. Open it up a month later to create a starter... do I still need to boil and chill or is it ready to pitch when it warms to room temp?
This is my only remaining question as well. Although I assume it is ready to pitch at room temp.
The difference between a pressure canner and a pressure cooker is the size. Normally pressure canners are considerably larger and can hold more jars. Most pressure cookers won't be tall enough to hold a quart jar.
There is no need to refrigerate the canned wort, it's good to store at room temperature. Since it has already been boiled there is also no need to boil again. Simply spray the lid/seal area with starsan, pour into a sanitized flask and add the yeast.
I am so ready to try this as oon as I get back home from this extended stay with my inlaws here in southern Georgia. I originally asked about reusing the lids because of wanting to avoid throwing them away after one use but they are really cheap to replace so it shouldn't be a big deal.
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After it's been processed the right amount of time at the right pressure (I use 15 PSI and 20 minutes), cool down to pitching temps and you can use it straight up.
Refer to my thread here.
MC
Baspronick
Active Member
I do not have a pressure cooker, but I do have a vacuum sealer. Would I be able to boil my wort, chill, then can in mason jars, and seal them with the foodsaver mason jar attachment and get the same results? Reviews say the mason jar attachment work great. If I did this, I would not need to refrigerate or freeze these jars, correct?
I wouldn't use that technique myself. The purpose of using a pressure canner is to pasteurize the wort so that it may be stored at room temperature. Boiling the wort will not hold it a high enough temperature to do that.
wyzazz
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No, you would need to refrigerate/freeze for storage and then re-boil your wort before use.
On the same note you are not pasteurizing the wort in a pressure canner, you are sterilizing it by raising the temp to 250F for 15mins. In contrast pasteurization can be done at 145F for 30mins. Sterilization kills everything in the wort, allowing it to be stored for a very long time at room temps.
wildwest450
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I don't see the reason for canning? I just put wort into plastic containers, freeze, thaw and boil for a few minutes when needed. I even do a few half gallon containers for lagers.
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It's to be able to skip the "...and boil for a few minutes..." part. Or more specifically the "stick it in a water bath and keep checking it till it cools to the right temperature" part that you didn't mention. Sanitize a container, open and dump the wort and yeast and you're done.
I don't do this (yet). Just heard about it a month ago, and with all the *other* homebrewing goodies I want with my return to this hobby I haven't been able to justify this particular expenditure. But it's definitely on my wishlist.
wyzazz
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Personally, it's just a quicker way to get a starter going when I am crunched for time. With a Wife that works a less than desirable schedule and 2 little ones running around I don't find that I have a ton of time to make a starter during the week if I'm brewing on the weekend. So, it works for me and is a great timesaver.
I am wanting to try this way of preparing starters because I don't have freezer space to store this wort.
maffewl
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ww, how long do you store yours for? I've thought about doing it the same way as you, but the thought of botulism or something growing while it's cooling or if they can only be stored for a week or two, seems to make canning a great option.
wildwest450
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I go from the mashtun right to the freezer, I don't see why it wouldn't last indefinitely.
So the actual canning process takes no time? I didn't mention the boiling time because I assume we all know how a starter is made. I just utilize wort that is already available to me at no additional labor or cost.
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wyzazz
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Of course it takes time, but being able to define when that time is what makes the difference. At least for me. I'm not saving any time by canning wort, just shifting that time elsewhere.
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