Candy Sugar The Right Way (hint we've been doing it wrong)

[ryane]

Im not going to get too far into this here (too much to retype + pics + tables that i really dont know how to add to a post here on HBtalk), but I will say that the way we (myself included) have all been doing candy sugar isnt the right way. Well that is if you want something more like D2, if you like burnt sugar keep doing it the same old way.

Normally I wouldn't start a thread about a blog post I've done but I think this is a very important topic and could really help out a lot of homebrewers make better beers. If I've got you at all intrigued click the link below to continue to read on (be prepared for a long read!) + tables and pics

http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html

I'm interested in what people think, so read up and lets get the discussion going!!

 

[manoaction]

Wow, that is really detailed. Congrats on being thorough.

I think I'll keep buying mine though.

 

[weirdboy]

You need to fix the link. It is broken.


Also, I appreciate the effort you went to here, but I think more important than "cooking time" which can vary quite dramatically due to atmospheric and equipment conditions, it would be useful to have accurate temperature readings of the solution. Also, "1 cup sugar" means different things to different people. Weight would be more consistent.


All that aside, I think the details you put together will really help with homemade candy syrup. I know I'm going to spend some time working on this pretty soon, and I appreciate all the work you've done to help guide others along a better path.

 

[Revvy]

It's fixed now. Good article, thanks!

 

[ryane]

Also, I appreciate the effort you went to here, but I think more important than "cooking time" which can vary quite dramatically due to atmospheric and equipment conditions, it would be useful to have accurate temperature readings of the solution. Also, "1 cup sugar" means different things to different people. Weight would be more consistent.

I knew the temp issue would come up, but when I did this, I went about it in a manner that I thought most people could just do with minimal equipment. I have a candy thermometer, but I dont think most people do

To reemphasize what I said at the bottom of the post, flavor development will be specific to your stove, pot, etc, so you should do a small test batch (just like I outlined) before you go all in. I should also mention that when increasing the batch size you should increase all ingredients EXCEPT the Lime

 

[MichaelBrock]

Along those same lines, this is how I have been doing it and it seems to work quite well:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/20-lb-sugar-jar-yeast-nutrient-114837/

 

[ryane]

Along those same lines, this is how I have been doing it and it seems to work quite well:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/20-lb-sugar-jar-yeast-nutrient-114837/

Not to disparage the way your going at it, but this seems to be the way we have always done it. Ive tried it by the method in the link, and, to me at least, the underlying flavor throughout that type of syrup is burnt sugar ala creme brulee.

When using lime, none of those flavors develop. Instead intense chocolate flavors (like a tootsie roll) seem to dominate. Raising the pH of the sugar syrup also corresponds more with what is done in beet sugar processing as well.

 

[dmckean44]

That was very informative. It seems we just need to think up a source of amino acids that could easily be added.

 

[ryane]

That was very informative. It seems we just need to think up a source of amino acids that could easily be added.

Yah, I think one of the things that I will do in the near future is retry this using an unrefined sugar. Hopefully all the extra stuff in there should increased the depth of flavor

 

[Beezer94]

Looking at your picture of the varying methods, it appears that the DAP ones are burnt. I have made Snickasaurusrex's a few times and had a problem the first time, only because the candy thermometer was 50F off the real temperature. After using a decent thermometer I have no problems getting fantastic flavor from the DAP method. I have had no problem making clear, light, amber, deep amber or sugar #5 (no burnt sugar). I also made sure to keep the heat at med-low to medium.

And I am not trying to say the DAP method is right, just your results greatly differ from mine and the pictures in that thread.

 

[ryane]

Looking at your picture of the varying methods, it appears that the DAP ones are burnt.

actually they are not burnt, and have 0 burned sugar flavors, the increased color formation is due to the high pH. An elevated pH promotes caramelization and maillard reactions, dramatically increasing the flavor development. A Low pH actually INHIBITS maillard reactions from taking place, slowing the process for making all those great flavors

 

[ryane]

just came across someone else with similar ideas about candi syrup

http://nateobrew.blogspot.com/2011/08/candi-syrup-secrets-and-how-to-make.html

 

[weirdboy]

I am thinking about trying this with some of the lye that I got for making pretzels. Are there any potential issues I haven't considered?

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Have you compared any of those products against D2 in terms of taste and/or fermentability? I didn't think I saw anything about that in the blog but I might have overlooked it.

 

[ryane]

Have you compared any of those products against D2 in terms of taste and/or fermentability? I didn't think I saw anything about that in the blog but I might have overlooked it.

no direct comparison yet, although the chocolate flavor is there the dark fruit isnt quite as much but I attribute that to the difference in types of amino acids

Im planning on a second round of trials with a couple twists to see what i can get, and then I'll try to taste against some d2

Overall though what Im hoping to get out of all of this is a lot of help from other people in tweaking this approach until we can get something that would be hard to differentiate from the commercial stuff

 

[ryane]

I am thinking about trying this with some of the lye that I got for making pretzels. Are there any potential issues I haven't considered?

Well since your adding sodium it might give off a bit of a salty flavor like I noticed with the baking soda, you might try with a lower dose of lye and see how it goes

FWIW though pickling lime is really cheap, I picked up a couple pounds and it will basically be a lifetime supply

 

[pheboglobi]

Awesome. I'll definitely have to try that next time. Thanks for the post!

 

[ddrrseio]

nice work ryane

possibly noob questions:

could you tell me a bit more about the variations? when i read the chart i was not sure what you are doing each time. what does 5 or 7 mean, for instance? each of those products has only one of the additives, correct? what is the effect of doing so many trials then? to try to nail down the amounts or the preparation?

 

[ryane]

nice work ryane

possibly noob questions:

could you tell me a bit more about the variations? when i read the chart i was not sure what you are doing each time. what does 5 or 7 mean, for instance? each of those products has only one of the additives, correct? what is the effect of doing so many trials then? to try to nail down the amounts or the preparation?

If you look at the top of the chart there are labels for each of the rows. the 5 or 7 is minutes boiled. Also in the text there is a short outline of what was in each mix and the amounts.

The reason for all the trials was to see which set of conditions gave the best results

 

[mistercameron]

How far does DAP go - how many batches would 2 oz make?

 

[ddrrseio]

If you look at the top of the chart there are labels for each of the rows. the 5 or 7 is minutes boiled. Also in the text there is a short outline of what was in each mix and the amounts.

The reason for all the trials was to see which set of conditions gave the best results

thanks, that makes sense. when i read it the first time i interpreted time to mean 'trial #' - noob question after all

 

[ryane]

How far does DAP go - how many batches would 2 oz make?

Well I was using 1/4tsp per cup of sugar, so a 2oz tube would last quite awhile.
Without going and measuring how much nutrient I used, it would be hard to be exact, but in all of my trials I only used about a half of a tube, and I did at least 2x as many as Im showing

 

[ryane]

So there has been some discussion about what D2 syrup really is, with some trying to argue that its nothing more than pure sugar that has been processed somehow

Looking at the spec sheet, this seems to be the case, however I sincerely doubt that. So Im going to run some tests on it to see whats really in there, right now Im going to measure...

Ash content
Iron
Calcium
Mg
Total Nitrogen

and Im trying to line up an hplc ms to get sugar compositions (glucose:sucrose:fructose)

Is there anything else that you think could be interesting/beneficial to measure??

 

[Calder]

OK, I've read this thread and read the blog, but I'm confused as to what you do to make this. Maybe I missed it, but it seems you have given a lot of different combinations and it's a 'pick whatever you like'.

Can you post what you think is the best 'recipe' to replicate candi-sugar.

Sorry, maybe it's late and I need to re-read it all again tomorrow.

 

[ryane]

OK, I've read this thread and read the blog, but I'm confused as to what you do to make this. Maybe I missed it, but it seems you have given a lot of different combinations and it's a 'pick whatever you like'.

Can you post what you think is the best 'recipe' to replicate candi-sugar.

Sorry, maybe it's late and I need to re-read it all again tomorrow.

I think I may have been purposely ambiguous about an exact mix, but Lime + Nutrient + sugar is the way to go, I'll have to take another look to make sure thats obvious.

In the trials I did, the one that tasted the best was

1/2tsp lime
1/2tsp nutrient
1c sugar

this one developed very strong chocolate flavors

 

[gugguson]

Two questions:

1. Lime, it is dried right? I don't know if it is available in my country - is there a recommended replacement?
2. I have dried yeast nutritient. I don't know if it is the one you are using. Is some of these what you recommend: http://morebeer.com/search/102174/beerwinecoffee/coffeewinebeer/Beer_Yeast_Nutrient

 

[ryane]

Two questions:

1. Lime, it is dried right? I don't know if it is available in my country - is there a recommended replacement?

slaked lime is also known as calcium hydroxide, its used for pickling cucumbers to keep them crisp. Nothing else Ive found seems to work as well

2. I have dried yeast nutritient. I don't know if it is the one you are using. Is some of these what you recommend: http://morebeer.com/search/102174/beerwinecoffee/coffeewinebeer/Beer_Yeast_Nutrient

While all the yeast nutrients will most likely produce similar flavors, they all will have their own nuances. I am gearing up to do a trial with DAP, WYeast nutrient, and any other I can get my hands on soon.

 

[StMarcos]

Someone needs to take one for the team, become a monk, move to Europe, make D2, and then pm one of us how it's done.

 

[mistercameron]

Someone needs to take one for the team, become a monk, move to Europe, make D2, and then pm one of us how it's done.

Why thank you! We fully accept your offer to relocate for our benefit. You even have a head start, as it appears you are already a saint... Saint Marcos.

The generosity of HBT members never fails to amaze me.

 

[gugguson]

I have problems finding slaked lime/calcium hydroxide here in Iceland. Is there anywhere on the net which I can order it internationally?

slaked lime is also known as calcium hydroxide, its used for pickling cucumbers to keep them crisp. Nothing else Ive found seems to work as well



While all the yeast nutrients will most likely produce similar flavors, they all will have their own nuances. I am gearing up to do a trial with DAP, WYeast nutrient, and any other I can get my hands on soon.