Candy Sugar The Right Way (hint we've been doing it wrong)

[callemann]

Mine seems very fermentable. Where do you get the idea that it creates unfermentable sugars.

My own experiments using rouglhy 1.5kg for rochefort 8 attempts with step/low mashing to increase fermentability renders my always at around 1.020fg, when it should be closer to 1.010. Aditionally, I use the exact same recipe for a tripel without the syrup, ending at 1.010.

My procedure for syrup is as follows:

1. Boil up sugar, a teaspoon of molasses, DAP and an alkalizing agent(dilute NaOH-check pH).
2. Heat to 260F, cool to 200F and repeat 2 times or until desired taste (dark toffe, plum, date-ish).
3. Cool, and add at end of boil.

I also find that the end flavor is off somehow, and quite different to the syrup flavors after the boil. ALmost a tendency to soy sauce flavors.

As for the fermentability, I thought S. cerveciae had trouble degrading both complex carbohydrates, pyrolyzed caramels and especially maillard compounds and melanoidins (also explaining higher f.g. with caramel malts).

Any thoughts?

 

[Calder]

Interesting, 1.5 kg is probably around 10 points.

I use acid (lemon juice) in mine. Maybe there is a difference between using an alkali and acid.

 

[JonnyJumpUp]

How many lbs. does this yield? Thanks!

No idea, I just go off of the amount of sugar I added in my recipes... which is about 1/2lb per cup.

 

[JonnyJumpUp]

Do you stir the mixture when you check on it?

I don't stir. For the record this isn't go to give you D2 I'm just commenting that the burnt flavors the OP posted about can be avoided if you are more careful to not scorch the sugar. I have found the oven an easier less involved way to do this.

 

[JonnyJumpUp]

Has anyone tried beet sugar? It looks relatively cheap on Amazon, and might give a better flavor profile. Maybe.

Check this article, and skip to page 3 for the taste testing in baking.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/SUGAR-SUGAR-Cane-and-beet-share-the-same-2939081.php

Supposedly sucrose is sucrose. In other words "modern" sugar is so refined and pure the fact that it came from cane or beet doesn't really matter its the same end product. I haven't tested that theory personnally...

 

[JonnyJumpUp]

Update:

Based on the OP's experiments I tried a few different things in an 6 tray cupcake tin with 1/4 cp sugar and 3/8th cup water in each tray. After three hours @ 300F (my oven setting) I sampled and made my wife sample as well. By the end of it she was bored so her tasting notes on the later ones weren't so great. For example: "nice nice can we go to bed now?" I just combined our tasting notes into one.

Might I say finding pickling lime is a nightmare? None of my trials involved it since I couldn't find any.

Plain Sugar: Light color very slight caremel taste.
Plain Sugar + Lemon Juice: Light amber color, toffee, caremel, fruity finish.
Sugar + 1/4 tsp Molasses: Light amber color. Molasses, toffee caramel.
Sugar + Baking Soda: Amber, chocolate, salty finish.
Sugar + Baking Soda + Fermax: Chocalate, Hints of Coffee, Salty finish.
Sugar + Fermax: Nuts, very slight hint of chocolate and/or coffee. (I though nut choc, wife thought nut coffee)

I mixed the Fermax with sugar mixure 50:50 with the lemon + sugar mixture: Amber color, nutty upfront, fading to very slight chocolate hint, to toffee/caremel finsihing sour/fruity.

I brewed the below belgian dubbel with .75lb of lemon+sugar mixed with .75lb fermax + sugar after they had seperately sat in the oven @ 300F until the last ten minutes of my boil. Will report back on how it turns out in a month or so.

9lbs Beligain Pils
2oz Special B

0.5oz Styrian @ 60
0.5 Saaz @ 30
0.5 Saaz @ 10

 

[ryane]

Update:

Based on the OP's experiments I tried a few different things in an 6 tray cupcake tin with 1/4 cp sugar and 3/8th cup water in each tray. After three hours @ 300F (my oven setting) I sampled and made my wife sample as well. By the end of it she was bored so her tasting notes on the later ones weren't so great. For example: "nice nice can we go to bed now?" I just combined our tasting notes into one.

Might I say finding pickling lime is a nightmare? None of my trials involved it since I couldn't find any.

Plain Sugar: Light color very slight caremel taste.
Plain Sugar + Lemon Juice: Light amber color, toffee, caremel, fruity finish.
Sugar + 1/4 tsp Molasses: Light amber color. Molasses, toffee caramel.
Sugar + Baking Soda: Amber, chocolate, salty finish.
Sugar + Baking Soda + Fermax: Chocalate, Hints of Coffee, Salty finish.
Sugar + Fermax: Nuts, very slight hint of chocolate and/or coffee. (I though nut choc, wife thought nut coffee)

Yah the baking soda always had a minerally/salty taste that got really bad when I tried to get to the same pH as when using lime

Strange that no one can seem to find pickling lime, seems it should be everywhere this time of year??

Anything else that will elevate pH can be used as well

 

[JonnyJumpUp]

Yah the baking soda always had a minerally/salty taste that got really bad when I tried to get to the same pH as when using lime

Strange that no one can seem to find pickling lime, seems it should be everywhere this time of year??

Anything else that will elevate pH can be used as well

I actually ended up finding it at Walmart for $5 for what I imagine would be a lifetime supply. Also found calcium chloride at the pet store but not sure I'd want to put it in my beer. It was also more expensive.

 

[Titan88]

I'm over a year behind on this discussion but I had a few questions:

1) In your report, you only used malic acid. Why not try a different acid like citric acid, or perhaps acid blend?
2) While you are correct that the Malliard reaction happens when the pH is higher, it still happens with low pH, just at a painstakingly slower rate. Why not use acid to invert the sugar, and then dilute the pH back towards basic by adding water and a pinch of baking soda. It has been proven that baking soda helps speed up the Malliard reaction.

I am by no means a scientist or professional, just food for thought.

EDIT: I read (see link below) that malic acid isn't in FDA guidelines for allowable acids used to make caramel (citric is allowed); however, I am searching the FDA website for confirmation. Also, sodium and bicarbonate are both approved salts in making caramel. Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate.

http://nateobrew.blogspot.com/p/diy-candi-syrup.html