Can you sour a homebrew with storebought sours?

[Ungoliant]

So, I recently brewed an Old Ale, and typically they're supposed to have some sourness to them, in keeping with the classic definition of the style. I also happen to have picked up a bottle of Rodenbach 2010 vintage, Barrel No. 144. It's a flemish red sour ale.

Could there be some residual lacto or brett in the Rodenbach, and would it be worth adding some to my secondary to get a little sourness out of my Old Ale?

 

[Hello]

Well, I've pitched dregs from sours and would think you can sour a beer that way, but check out this website. This is my go to for things like that:
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/06/harvesting-sour-beer-bottle-dregs.html

 

[StopTakingMyUsername]

You can pitch dregs from other sour beers. It does make a noticeable difference.
But some brewers bottle condition with wine yeasts, or different bretts. So the dregs you pour in may not be anything you necessarily wanted. ("The Mad Fermentationist" has a list of some general ones)

Also, "sour" is produced by lactic acid bacteria: Pediococcus and Lactobacillus. You won't get "sour" from any conditioning yeasts like brett.

You can save and propagate starters from bottle dregs, and taste/smell the starters you've made to see what they're like.
You certainly could try growing up the dregs to a pitchable amount and entirely fermenting your beer with them... but I've never done that. I always pitch grown-up dregs in conjunction with a starter of a primary strain (brett, or other). If you really want SOUR, I'd also lean more towards starters of those lactic acid bacteria, and just tossing the dregs in secondary to see what happen.

 

[bovineblitz]

Rodenbach is pasteurized, there's no bugs (or yeast) in there.

 

[CA_Mouse]

Rodenbach Flemish Red does not contain viable bacteria. If you can get Monk's Cafe Flemish Sour Red Ale, I would try that.

 

[Ungoliant]

Rodenbach is pasteurized, there's no bugs (or yeast) in there.

Well, I just looked in the bottom of the bottle and there's definitely a good bit of sediment...So you're saying they pasteurize but don't filter the limited edition releases?

 

[Ungoliant]

I'm only looking for a touch of sour. I'm considering adding the dregs in the secondary, once primary fermentation has finished, and letting it sit for a few months before I bottle age it.

 

[Ungoliant]

Alternatively, I have a bottle of Kamen Knuddeln Kentucky Common that I could use the dregs from, if they're viable.

 

[burninator]

Well, I just looked in the bottom of the bottle and there's definitely a good bit of sediment...So you're saying they pasteurize but don't filter the limited edition releases?

Yes. Unless your bottle is very old, it is pasteurized. Rodenbach pasteurizes all their beers. They're that confident in the product as bottled.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I'd disagree that Old Ales are necessarily SUPPOSED to have some sourness. The "vinous" character is often a result of age and oxidation, akin more to Sherry or Port than to sour beer. In both 2008 and 2015 BJCP guidelines, bacterial sourness or Brett should be minor components and if present at all should be a background note. The only still available classic commercial example I know of (emphasis on "that I know of") that's still got some sour beer in there is Old Suffolk, and that's very much blended and pasteurized.

If I were you, I would try to avoid the Belgian sours. I don't think Brett L or Brett B are going to be particularly appropriate (B more than L). You could consider pitching Brett C or Brett A, along with a Lacto strain, and that might get the job done. Although be aware that with time the bugs (and Brett in particular) will begin to dominate the character.

I've got one going now that got primary fermentation with 1469 West Yorkshire, and has now been sitting for 14 months with Brett C and oak (and will get bottled in another 8 months).

 

[bovineblitz]

I'd disagree that Old Ales are necessarily SUPPOSED to have some sourness. The "vinous" character is often a result of age and oxidation, akin more to Sherry or Port than to sour beer. In both 2008 and 2015 BJCP guidelines, bacterial sourness or Brett should be minor components and if present at all should be a background note. The only still available classic commercial example I know of (emphasis on "that I know of") that's still got some sour beer in there is Old Suffolk, and that's very much blended and pasteurized.

If I were you, I would try to avoid the Belgian sours. I don't think Brett L or Brett B are going to be particularly appropriate (B more than L). You could consider pitching Brett C or Brett A, along with a Lacto strain, and that might get the job done. Although be aware that with time the bugs (and Brett in particular) will begin to dominate the character.

I've got one going now that got primary fermentation with 1469 West Yorkshire, and has now been sitting for 14 months with Brett C and oak (and will get bottled in another 8 months).

I think it's partially tannins too, since they were aged in barrels.

 

[Ungoliant]

I'd disagree that Old Ales are necessarily SUPPOSED to have some sourness. The "vinous" character is often a result of age and oxidation, akin more to Sherry or Port than to sour beer. In both 2008 and 2015 BJCP guidelines, bacterial sourness or Brett should be minor components and if present at all should be a background note.

Not to rebut, but just sharing my source with you.

"However, analysis of old and stock ales, both English and American, carried out by Wahl-Henius around 1880–1900 indicated that they contained significant amounts of lactic acid. This would most likely be the source of the “sub-acid” flavor, and probably came from Lactobacilli in the staves of the wooden storage vessels used in those days."
http://byo.com/malt/item/1201-old-ales

Thanks everyone for the feedback so far. I've been sort of toying with the idea of sours for a while now, so I don't know a whole lot about it, and figured with the recent beers I've picked up I could do something with them.

Either way, I'm not taking this one to a competition, and I'm not going be heart broken if I don't end up with any Brett or Lacto characteristics in this Old Ale (due to a lack of bug availability in the instance of this beer).

 

[Qhrumphf]

Not to rebut, but just sharing my source with you.

"However, analysis of old and stock ales, both English and American, carried out by Wahl-Henius around 1880–1900 indicated that they contained significant amounts of lactic acid. This would most likely be the source of the “sub-acid” flavor, and probably came from Lactobacilli in the staves of the wooden storage vessels used in those days."
http://byo.com/malt/item/1201-old-ales

Thanks everyone for the feedback so far. I've been sort of toying with the idea of sours for a while now, so I don't know a whole lot about it, and figured with the recent beers I've picked up I could do something with them.

Either way, I'm not taking this one to a competition, and I'm not going be heart broken if I don't end up with any Brett or Lacto characteristics in this Old Ale (due to a lack of bug availability in the instance of this beer).

If we're talking historical beer, then absolutely. But that's not the modern case any more. If you're not going for a comp then either approach is fine.

Like I said I'd pitch Brett C and Lacto directly unless you know of an unpasteurized bottled sour Old Ale with English bugs, you may not get the right character from the Belgian stuff.

However I would sooner go with a Flemish sour than a Lambic if you're going to use dregs from a Belgian style sour. Perhaps Panil Barrique would work, as that one is not pasteurized.

Cheers and I hope it works out well for you.

 

[Ungoliant]

I think I'm just going to try the Kamen Knuddeln dregs to see what happens. I haven't been able to find much info on using it to sour a beer, but that's probably because it's from a small-ish brewery in Kentucky. Unfortunately, I haven't seen many sours in my area and just came home from out of town where I bought a couple sours. If I get any results from the dregs, I'll make a new post.

 

[CA_Mouse]

Well, I just looked in the bottom of the bottle and there's definitely a good bit of sediment...So you're saying they pasteurize but don't filter the limited edition releases?

I believe that they add champagne yeast at bottling to carbonate.

I'm only looking for a touch of sour. I'm considering adding the dregs in the secondary, once primary fermentation has finished, and letting it sit for a few months before I bottle age it.

I would suggest Monk's Café Flemish Sour Red Ale still. This has a lacto sourness. You only get sour from Lactobacillus or Pediococcus, Brettanomyces will give you funkiness and 'barnyard' elements.

 

[dantheman13]

This got me started making sours: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=189748