Can you explain the NoopleTucker Dunkel Weizen recipe to me (papazian)

[jigidyjim]

Thinking of doing Papazian's "NoopleTucker Dunkel Weizen", but don't fully understand what's going on here:

First he lets the grains sit in 133 F water for 30 min. Then he mashes at 155 F for 45 min. Then at 158 for 10-20 min. Then raises heat to 167.

I've only done mashes at one constant temp. I know that the 167 must be a "mash out", but haven't really read up on why people do that yet. I know there are "two-step" mashes, but I'm confused here:

what is the 133F step doing? Why does he change from 155 to 158?

I'm doing brew in a bag (easy stove top all grain), so raising temp is a little hard because I might burn my bag if I apply heat. If I don't mash out, do you think that'll be ok?

He also ferments at 70-72, pretty high, but I guess that's to get banana flavors from the bavarian yeast, which is fine, because my house is that warm anyway.

 

[frazier]

Charlie P. is a great salesman for homebrewing. But IMO, his recipes are either too simple or too complex. I don't think you'll find too many advocates of multi-step mashes here.

 

[jigidyjim]

I just read a little more, and supposedly the point of the first step (133F) is to get some nutrients out of the wheat (and build up head retention i guess), and that maybe this step is only needed for wheat beers. Thoughts?

Not sure the point of the 155-158 step. Also, not totally sure about the importance of mash outs yet.

 

[Pimpfoot]

http://thankheavenforbeer.com/2010/03/08/how-to-brew-2-0-step-mashing/

Step mashing allows you to do a few things that single infusions dont. If you really want to understand what he's trying to accomplish with the multiple temperature steps do some reading on protien rests and saccrification rests. In my humble opinion, if you want to do a Dunkle correctly then step mashing or decoction is the way to go. The drawbacks of step mashing are the amount of extra attention and time you dedicate to your mash. It also may require a bit more equiptment or creativity.

The 133 temp you are seeing in charlie's recipe is the protien rest, he does 158 instead of 155 to get more body out of the mash (higher temp = more body, lower temp = more fermentables) and yes the 167 is mash out. He's also fermenting at higher temps to take advantage of the banana esters the yeast will produce. This effect is favorable to this type of beer and adds a desired flavor to the style.

 

[Pimpfoot]

I just read a little more, and supposedly the point of the first step (133F) is to get some nutrients out of the wheat (and build up head retention i guess), and that maybe this step is only needed for wheat beers. Thoughts?

Not sure the point of the 155-158 step. Also, not totally sure about the importance of mash outs yet.

Wheat benefits well from this type of procedure due to its high protien content, and lack of enzymes. Any grain that is not well modified (modified vs unmodified grains would be a good thing to research as well.) benefits from a protien rest in order to break down the protien chains. This will help prevent protien haze and also help to allow more starches to be converted into usable stuff for the yeast.

Mash outs help to denature (kill) the enzymes in the grains that convert the sugars. This effectively "finishes" your mash, ensuring that no more conversion will take place. This also can help to increase your efficiency by washing the rest of your sugars off the grains and into your wort.