Can you Brew It recipe for Stone Arrogant Bastard

[stonebrewer]

I just popped open a bottle of this I made back in August. I used Chinook @ 90,60,30, & 5. I used WLP007 for part of the batch and WLP002 for the rest. I used 1/2 lb of british crystal 135/165L and 1 lb of special b. The bottle of WLP002 is identical to what I have had at Stone! I usually use the WLP007 but I made an experimental gallon and a few bottles with the WLP002 and I cannot tell the difference between it and the real thing. I bottle aged it and I am shocked at how close it is to the real thing. I usually use 007 and like the beer it makes, but this is like what I had in Escondido earlier this year. It was REALLY hoppy and had that unique taste and smell. I will have to do another BIG batch of this with wlp002. Color me suprised!

 

[shmEk]

..Color me suprised!

How did the WLP007 compare in there with the AB and the 002 version? Assuming you went with the 90/10specB, right?

 

[stonebrewer]

How did the WLP007 compare in there with the AB and the 002 version? Assuming you went with the 90/10specB, right?

Very similar though a little less hoppy and a tad more dry. I have varied the hops and malts a little over the attempts. I use around 14 lbs of two row, around a pound/pound and a half of special B, and about a half pound of dark crystal (British 135/165L). I use either all Chinook or Chinook w/ Columbus for aroma at 5 or flameout. The malt seems pretty spot on and I am really happy with the hops now. Now that I have a decent sized MLT, I plan to do a lot more experimental batches of various sizes. Should be fun in side-by-side tests. Worst case I keep drinking a lot of really good, fresh beer that is close to AB!

 

[ultravista]

stonebrewer - what was your mash temperature?

I was wondering about WLP002 vs. WLP007, per Mitch, both will work. Do you think the yeast itself made the difference?

I brewed the #2 version Sunday, 90% 2-row & 10% Special B. I mashed at 153 (over shot temp and left it as-is). The pre-fermenter gravity reading was 1.072 so I'm somewhere in the 72% efficiency. These grains were purchased through Brewmasters Warehouse with a double crush instruction. Looking at the grains however, I don't think they were double crushed.

Total grain bill was 15.94 pounds. I collected a little over 5.5 gallons so that extra 1/2 gallon reduction may have upped the OG a point or so.

I mash in a bag and collected 6 quarts of second running "leftovers" (1.042) while the main batch was in the kettle. On the stove, I condensed down to 40 ounces and a whopping 1.122. I dumped that into the kettle towards the end. It was sweet and viscous. If you mash in a bag, try this some time. I don't know what flavors it imparts but condensing down otherwise discardable runnings really makes sense.

My Chinooks were 13.99 AA so I went 1 oz. at 85, 1 oz. at 40, and 1 ounce after flameout at approximately 180 degrees. When I hop, the previous hops stay in the bag.

The flameout hops were "steeped" for 60 minutes while I let the wort cool down.

It tasted pretty damned hoppy.

I'm wondering how the 153 mash temp will affect the flavor. Is there really a perceptable difference between 148 and 153?

Now we need to perfect the Double Bastard ...

 

[stonebrewer]

Ultravista

Stone tends to mash higher than I do, at around 156. I usually mash my "equivalent" of their beers in the 148-152 range, somewhere between alpha and beta amylase. I find this gives me the best of both worlds. YMMV. Both WLP002 and WLP007 make great clones of AB. I just think that WLP002, which I rarely use, seems to make the hops pop a little more (or there is something I am missing, sh!t like that happens in brewing ALL THE TIME!) and the beer is a tad sweeter/maltier than WLP007. I use 16 pounds of grain. WHO in his right mind uses 15.94? Same thing for Beersmith's water calculations! Use 27.5 quarts? No! I use 7 gallons. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't sweat the details and getting close it pretty dang awesome in homebrewing terms. I have a read a lot on brewing and will keep reading but I will share one thing I have learned: brewers are lazy. Not knocking them, but they are like many of us. So instead of having drabs of hops or grain laying around, craft brewers just toss it in! If they are building a new beer that calls for 10.72342 lbs of hops, they throw the 11 pound bag they bought in cause who wants to keep up with that .27658 lb of leftovers? I used to use .85 oz of Chinook at w,x,y,z minutes but now I just use 1oz as that is easier on me. Still makes really good beer!! Sorry if I went on a small rant there, but I think if we stop and think about how things are really done, we can make equivalent products. I think we rely too heavily on computer programs to tell us how to make beer (and I am a computer guy!) instead of using common sense.

Sounds like you make really good beer! You are also lucky to be close enough to drive to Stone when you want. I have to fly there, but am lucky to do so once or twice a year. Next time I am in Vegas I will look you up and we can pontificate about the wonders of brewing...

Cheers!

 

[ultravista]

stonebrewer - I hear ya.

I'm anxious to see how this tastes mashed at 153 from the last version at 148. There should be a little more mouthfeel and residual sweetness from the unfermentables. To what extend, I don't know.

Having tried the Double Bastard, I can say that I prefer the D.B to the A.B. for the maltiness. Maybe D.B. is mashed a little higher and we know it has a higher starting gravity.

I brewed a Barney Flats Oatmeal Stout recently. It called for London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968), I however used WLP007. WLP007 dried it out pretty well, so much so that it's no longer close to the real thing. With that in mind, I am certain WLP007 is doing the same thing to A.B.

1968 London ESB Ale Yeast = WLP002 English Ale Yeast

 

[DustBow]

FWIW regarding the DB, at a Stone tasting event I asked Grek Koch himself if the ingredients in the DB were the same as the AB just "ramped up and tweaked a bit"....his response was "No, there's some different stuff in there...." he was vague obviously but pretty much said the grain bill is different than the original AB - which makes sense, it's definitely a different malt taste/finish....I personally think DB ist their best beer

 

[stonebrewer]

As much as I love Stone beers, I have not tried the DB yet. I will have to soon. I am heading to a Vertical Epic Ale tasting tomorrow with 2003-2012 on tap.

Let me know how that comes out for you mashed higher. I have been meaning to do a 156 mash at some point, and may do so soon now that I have a spare MLT and can split batches about anyway I can imagine. Should be an interesting side by side comparison! Agree on wlp007 being more efficient at gobbling sugars than wlp002. I have used both and like both. I tend to use wlp002 when I want more residual sweetness, combining that with a higher mash temp. Perhaps a good side by side would be to do AB at 148 with 007 and 156 with 002 and see what I get? Yep...beer! Grin!

 

[ultravista]

stonebrewer, when using WLP007, how fast does your batch typically ferment and settle down?

For example, I pitched at 5:30 PM Sunday, by 3 AM the following morning, the fermenter was pretty active. 24 hours later, it was really rockin-and-rolling. Today, Wednesday morning, it has settled back down and appears the krausen has subsided.

Pitching temp started at 66, it rose to 72, and it's down to 67.

Does WLP007 work that quickly?

Every time I have used it, the fermenter has been in a fridge. This time however, I have it inside on the kitchen floor. It may always act this way, I just haven't seen it.

When you're doing A.B., how quick is the primary fermentation activity?

 

[DustBow]

the WLP-007 is a pretty fast worker from what I remember when using it in the past

 

[stonebrewer]

Sounds the same as what I see: it works furiously for a day or two and by day 3 or 4 the krausen has fallen in and I am getting a bubble in my bucket about every 15 seconds. I tend to leave it on the yeast for two weeks before kegging it and 007 keeps working though it slows considerably after the first week. For the first 1-3 days it looks like a washing machine with a huge amount of churn before settling down. I always ferment with 007 in my basement at 68-72 and it works fast and produces a good amount of alcohol. I always use a liter starter and generally use washed yeast. Most of the time I start getting a bubble per minute within 4 hours, especially if I hit it with a minute or so of pure oxygen. I always feed the yeast with energizer and some 1.040 starter wort. Typically I start this on Friday night for a Sunday evening pitch.

The Stone Epic ales were AWESOME last night. Had the 3-3-3, 5-5-5, 7-7-7, 9-9-9 and 12-12-12 and a double bastard. I hurt like hell this morning, but it was worth it!! LOVED the 9-9-9, 12-12-12 and double B!! Stone has recipes for all Epics online and I am definitely going to brew some of those! You guys were spot on about the double B...that was like liquid sex!

 

[ultravista]

stonebrewer - your process is very similar to mine with the exception of feeding the yeast with an energizer. I have never used a nutrient yet and have had great success. I too hit the cooled wort with about a minute of O2 through a 200 micron stone. Not full blast, but a nice bubble.

The detail you provided regarding WLP007 is spot-on to what occured with my recent batch of AB. Funny how these things work ...

I can get the verticals here in Las Vegas this time of year. I'll have to pick some up. Stone is pretty cheap, like $6.99 for the Double Bastard, Barley Wine, Verticals, etc. My local place also discounts %10 on six bottles too.

The Double Bastard is the best in my opinion. I would really like to perfect it on the homebrew scale. Like Double Dead Guy, which I do have a recipe for (courtesy of John @ Rogue), the Double Bastard is my favorite goto beer.

 

[stonebrewer]

ultravista - Always nice to have confirmation that you are doing the same as other brewers and getting the same results! I bought a huge bag of energizer after reading a couple of books that detailed the nutrients needed for yeast to properly grow and metabolize. Not sure if it helps or not, but I get pretty good results so I stick to it. I wash a lot of yeast and am thinking once I runout of energizer to just put a cup of old yeast into the boil instead of buying more energizer. That will at least give them the Biotin they need and the vitamin B complex. I don't think they contain DAP or magnesium sulphate, but honestly have not done the research yet to find out one way or the other. I think they like/need zinc as well, but that is going off memory and mine it not trustworthy...grin!

I think I am going to brew up 10G of AB this weekend and am trying to decide today which yeast to use. I am leaning towards WLP002 right now but may change my mind before I kick off the starter in an hour or so...

If you find a DB recipe you like PLEASE let me know and I will do likewise! I got a bottle the other night ($17! yikes!) and have to find a way to recreate or get close!

 

[Brewenstein]

Anyone ever try pulling off the first gallon of wort and boiling it hard and reducing to a half gallon and then adding it back into the main boil like you would for a Scottish ale? I wonder if this would help with the malt flavor that it seems isn't quite nailed down. I am planning on brewing this soon, and may give it a try.

 

[ultravista]

Yup, I do that with most beers I brew. As a "mash in a bag" brewer, I drain the bag and can usually collect 6 to 7 quarts post sparge. I boil down these runnings to a quart or less on the stove.

Very similar to your process.

 

[bigbeergeek]

I did a decoction mashout on my last stab at AB. 14% special B, all hop additions increased by 30% nailed it in my opinion (and the regular AB drinkers I shared it with)

 

[ultravista]

After 20 days, I kegged the AB. It tasted great, hoppy and the Chinook flavor came through. All with only 3 oz.

One hydrometer read 1.014 and another 1.020. I'll have to calibrate to determine which one is accurate. The high one is new from Brew Masters Warehouse. It will suck if it's that far off.

 

[TrickyDick]

I can't believe I rad the whole thread!!

Seems to be several personal preferences and opinions of outcomes of these clone recipes. Seems like all are close.

Personally, I don't know if I have the nose to sniff out all the details. I picked up the last bottle at the local store today of AB after reading this and tried to discern if I could tell what specialty malt and hops were used. Nope, it's too arrogant for me! I'm lucky I even enjoyed the beer! The onslaught of hops and bitterness dominated any chance I had at discerning malt subtleties. Maybe it's like spicy food, and I need to desensitize the bitter tastebuds or something.

I think I'm gonna try to brew this recipe anyway, as I enjoyed the AB I bought today after a long working weekend.

My thoughts after reading the thread are as follows:

If I were trying to create a mystique about a special recipe, I would count on homebrewerrs trying to teases it from my employees and I agree that there is probably a certain amount of misdirection going on.

I think it might be not a recipe ingredient thing, but a process thing that is keeping folks from perfecting the absolute clone. Why does Guinness taste different in Ireland than in America when the stuff we get is brewed in Ireland?? Could be same thing here. Lord knows my palate will not be able to tease out the finer detail.

Has anyone tried a hop back or hop rocket? I made a 10 G batch of pale ale June 2011, just before I went on a brewing hiatus. I had a carboy sitting in the house for a good 10 months before I kegged it. The hop aroma was still incredible compared to non hop backed brews. Maybe this would help up the hop aroma and flavor for those missing the mark?
Also, bittering the early additions I think the more extraction of alpha acid bittering, it becomes exponential to get the uber bitter beer. Maybe I will do 2 oz x 90 min, and double the addition weight for each successive addition. I doubt that you can really taste the difference between an 85+ IBU beer and a100+ IBU beer that has an OG over 1.060. Maybe if you did a straight pilsner malt and no specialty malt...l

Does anyone think that they might be doing any manipulation such as blending beer, toasting malt, or perhaps lying about the simplicity of their grist? Water profiles I think only lend so much. It could be simply a fermentation temp or yeast or second fermentation thing going on?

Who knows, but ultimately, the 90:10 2 row to either special b or c150 seems to be good enough for a home brewer to enjoy a great beer that's close enough for most.

I'm going to try it soon, but have too many March madness plans to consider any extra brews. Got 10 brew days planned already!

TD

 

[ultravista]

Mr. Dick

I have made several batches with 90% 2-row and 10% Special B. While Special B may be in the ballpark, I don't think the ratio is right. Bottles of AB have a distinct flavor to them, similar to Jubelale (at least to me).

Jubelale lists crystal and an extra special malt.

So I'm wondering .. increase the Special B or possibly go with 120 or 150.

Either way, I think 10% is a little shy.

Have you had Jubelale? Do you know the taste I am referring to?

To me, that unique flavor is more pronounced in the Double Bastard.

Check this thread too: http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=16613

 

[stonebrewer]

Does anyone think that they might be doing any manipulation such as blending beer, toasting malt, or perhaps lying about the simplicity of their grist? Water profiles I think only lend so much. It could be simply a fermentation temp or yeast or second fermentation thing going on?

Yeah, I think it is the yeast. I am pretty sure this is a simple beer, ingredient wise. The one thing we cannot get is their house yeast. WLP007 and WLP002 both come close, but are different and I think that is the subtle delta that eludes us. That said, I have made this beer six ways to Sunday and I can say each has been different and each has been freakin' awesome to drink. Changed just fermentation temps last time and got a "bubble gum" ester note that I have tasted in some of Stone's brews. I am actually having a glass of that now and am really enjoying it. This was a 10G batch and it is over half gone; brewed right before Christmas. Took a couple of gallons to a party and it was a hit. Took a gallon to a Friday, after work get together and it was a huge hit. I think I will brew it again in a week or two. This time I may change from Special B to C150 as Austin HB has it on sale for a $1 per pound...or I may just make it the same way I did this one. Please post after you brew it...

 

[ultravista]

stonebrewer - which is your closest recipe thus far?

 

[stonebrewer]

Hard to say but I think the Chinook, Special B, British Crystal 135/165L, and WLP007 was closest. It was not as hoppy as it needed to be, but the malt was spot on and it had that residual sweetness I detect in AB. I actually did a split batch with this one, using WLP007 and WLP002. I had a friend do a taste test and he thought the 007 was closer, but it was not as hoppy (but close!) and the beer was flatter ( I think I targeted 2.2 volumes when I should have added enough sugar for 2.7 or higher; I usually keg so my bottling needs some work).

Just ordered C150 from Austin so I will do the next one with Chinook, WLP007, and C150 ( I also throw in some carapils...8oz..this has a rock solid head and beautiful lace). Will let you know how it comes out. The one I am drinking now had about 25% more Chinook and I think it is still a little shy on the hop side. Probably will bump this to 1/2 lb or a little more...all in the boil and whirlpool. I do not dry hop this at all.

Cheers!

 

[CraigT]

I'm planning on brewing this in the next few weeks. Just wondering how those who've aimed for 1.018 FG thought theirs turned out. I'm splitting this batch and trying both 002 and 007. I may use caramel 135-160 instead. Haven't yet decided. I think I may also try doing a long 60-90 minute steep at around 200 degrees after the boil (which I have read stone does for most brews). Any advise from those who've tried cloning this before is very much appreciated as this is my first attempt.



Arrogant Bastard

Style: Unassigned OG: 1.073
Type: FG: 1.018
Rating: 0.0 ABV: 7.20 %
Calories: 238 IBU's: 96.91
Efficiency: 70 % Boil Size: 14.00 Gal
Color: 21.8 SRM Batch Size: 11.00 Gal
Preboil OG: 1.060 Boil Time: 90 min

Grains & Adjuncts
Amount Percentage Name Time Gravity
29.70 lbs 90.00 % Briess 2-Row Brewers Malt 60 mins 1.037
3.30 lbs 10.00 % Special B Malt 60 mins 1.030

Hops
Amount IBU's Name Time AA %
2.00 ozs 39.97 Chinook 90 mins 13.00
2.00 ozs 34.30 Chinook 45 mins 13.00
2.00 ozs 22.64 Chinook 20 mins 13.00
2.00 ozs 0.00 Chinook 0 mins 13.00

Yeasts
Split batch half with 002 and half with 007

Mash at 154

 

[CraigT]

Now I'm not sure how to approach this. I left this sample of AB sit out overnight and it looks like its around 1.013? Which is 5 points different from the sample FG posted earlier on in this thread.

 

[stonebrewer]

Now I'm not sure how to approach this. I left this sample of AB sit out overnight and it looks like its around 1.013? Which is 5 points different from the sample FG posted earlier on in this thread.

It will be fine, just a little more dry. Which yeast was this one from? The 002 will likely come out higher and the 007 will likely come out lower in my experiences...

 

[CraigT]

It will be fine, just a little more dry. Which yeast was this one from? The 002 will likely come out higher and the 007 will likely come out lower in my experiences...

Sorry for the confusion. That sample was from a bottle of Stone's arrogant bastard. I haven't decided on my recipe yet

 

[stonebrewer]

Ahhh! I don't think I would be too concerned with 5 points, but I would probably try to hit that as your FG anyway. Since we don't know what the SG was for AB, this is a bit of a guessing game. Good data point though! Cheers!

 

[CraigT]

Well I saved my hydro sample of the commercial AB and now that I'm home from work it is at 1.018, matching what someone else posted earlier in this thread. It must have still had some co2 left in it this morning even though it had sat out for 10 or so hours overnight. So I might shoot for a higher og and higher mash temp when I brew this.

 

[ultravista]

Hard to say but I think the Chinook, Special B, British Crystal 135/165L, and WLP007 was closest. It was not as hoppy as it needed to be, but the malt was spot on and it had that residual sweetness I detect in AB. I actually did a split batch with this one, using WLP007 and WLP002. I had a friend do a taste test and he thought the 007 was closer, but it was not as hoppy (but close!) and the beer was flatter ( I think I targeted 2.2 volumes when I should have added enough sugar for 2.7 or higher; I usually keg so my bottling needs some work).

Just ordered C150 from Austin so I will do the next one with Chinook, WLP007, and C150 ( I also throw in some carapils...8oz..this has a rock solid head and beautiful lace). Will let you know how it comes out. The one I am drinking now had about 25% more Chinook and I think it is still a little shy on the hop side. Probably will bump this to 1/2 lb or a little more...all in the boil and whirlpool. I do not dry hop this at all.

Cheers!

Any updates?

I do not think this recipe is Special B alone. It may be close, but there's a missing Crystal flavor in the commercial sample.

 

[stonebrewer]

Update? Not much. I did bottle the gallon I set aside and fermented with WLP002, vice WLP007. So they need another 3ish weeks to carb up. The other 10 gallons are in kegs conditioning. According to my normal schedule, they should be ready to carb up around the end of April. It definitely had a different aroma so once it is ready I will snag a few bottles at the bottle shop, grab a fellow homebrewer or two, and do a blind taste test. Might try the ol' triangle test, just for grins. Should be interesting. I will report back once I get around to doing this. I have a heavy travel schedule, so I need to fit this in to that...

Cheers!