Can I upgrade typical march pump to HF?

[bendavanza]

If anyone finds a good price on these impellers online, please post it. rshosted, thanks for the pics, this explains a lot.

 

[MrFugglz]

Why do you guys need 2 stage chiilers?
Is your tap water that warm that you can't chill your water to pitch temp with just a counterflow or plate chiller?

Instead of a two stage, if doesn't cool that much, couldn't you just set the plate chiller in salted ice water?

My H2O temp in the winter is around 40F, so no problems there. But, in the summer months it hits up to 70F on hot days... I try to get my wort for lagers down to 50-55F before adding my yeast slurry. I believe most off flavors are generated during the lag phase of yeast propagation.

To you other point, a plate chiller's heat exchange occurs at the point of contact (i.e., between the plates and not the entire casing). I tried the ice bath and got less than 5 degrees benefit. It may have gotten better over a longer period, but time is of the essence... Plus, let's face it; another gadget to build!!!

Would advise skipping salt completely, don't want to expose one of my most expensive pieces of equipment to unnecessary corrosion.

 

[Egbert]

Yeah, if your tap water is that warm in the summer, there certainly wold be a need to knock it down more.

Salt water onto Stainless for that small period of time wouldn't phase it, you're going to rinse it and clean it afterwards anyway.

 

[MrFugglz]

Yeah, if your tap water is that warm in the summer, there certainly wold be a need to knock it down more.

Salt water onto Stainless for that small period of time wouldn't phase it, you're going to rinse it and clean it afterwards anyway.

My jockey box is stainless and my wort chiller is copper. Regardless, you're probably right, just being overly cautious I guess...

 

[RonRock]

If anyone finds a good price on these impellers online, please post it. rshosted, thanks for the pics, this explains a lot.

+1 I'll try a couple.

 

[MrFugglz]

I just ordered my upgraded impeller from my local distributor. $24 and 2/3 weeks delivery time. I'll post the results once I make the upgrade.

 

[Mojoe4]

I ordered mine from these guys last week

http://www.pumpagents.com/cgi-bin/store.pl

Cost me $24 plus some shipping. Now I see they want $35 and only have one in stock.

 

[BrewBeemer]

I ordered mine from these guys last week

http://www.pumpagents.com/cgi-bin/store.pl

Cost me $24 plus some shipping. Now I see they want $35 and only have one in stock.

Wow, I paid $19 for the HF impeller no shipping as it was 6 miles away.
I had to wait three weeks as they had to build up a larger order from March, no biggie I can wait. A super nice family run business handling March pumps and parts here on the left coast.

 

[RonRock]

So does this make a big difference in the pump? I would think it would. But has anybody used the new impeller yet?

 

[BrewBeemer]

Ron, I have a couple empty kegs plus a white plastic 55 gallon drum I was going to measure flow volumes including different head elevations loading down both impellers in my Chugger pump. Health failure reasons with the back have delayed many projects. I also have another idea needing machining and testing before I spout off of any more improved performance.
Working with what I have what the heck failed ideas are cheap, knowledge is
priceless.

 

[RonRock]

Thanks BBeemer. I am of the guessing that the larger impeller would most certainly make a difference in the pumps ability. I only wish that the larger impeller was more readily available. The price you paid makes the impeller a no brain'r, but what I have been able to find makes it a bit more of an investment. I have 3 March's now, if this works I'd change them all.

Just another on my long list of improvements. Maybe some day I'll actually brew some beer on my brewstand.


Cheers

 

[BrewBeemer]

Dummy me sold the old brewery to a longtime friend moving out of state, how was I to know a massive back injury was to happen later?
Stuck at home without a brewery not able to build the next "better one", oh well this gives me more time to think and add more ideas to it.

I'd call around different March distributors in your area, hell I might of got lucky as they quoted me $19 plus $10.40 a spare March SS pump end cover.
This a test to see if the SS had different magnetic shielding properties March vs Chugger, nope both the same in shielding the magnetic pull.
One thing the March impeller magnet is full width strong in pull vs narrower on the Chugger magnet. This alone besides longer impeller arms of the March HF is a win win for me with my future pump modification plans.
Yes I will take notes of the changes be it better or worse in performance.

 

[RapidRuss]

Dummy me sold the old brewery to a longtime friend moving out of state, how was I to know a massive back injury was to happen later?
Stuck at home without a brewery not able to build the next "better one", oh well this gives me more time to think and add more ideas to it.

I'd call around different March distributors in your area, hell I might of got lucky as they quoted me $19 plus $10.40 a spare March SS pump end cover.
This a test to see if the SS had different magnetic shielding properties March vs Chugger, nope both the same in shielding the magnetic pull.
One thing the March impeller magnet is full width strong in pull vs narrower on the Chugger magnet. This alone besides longer impeller arms of the March HF is a win win for me with my future pump modification plans.
Yes I will take notes of the changes be it better or worse in performance.

Carl, Just get that Dad Gum thing done so we can drink from it ? I'am getting awful thirsty here.. Just Run a CSR BBF pump on there..It'll get the brew flowing at 35GPM.....>o&o>

 

[MrFugglz]

The results are in! I picked up my impeller and ran a before and after trial. The installation is extremely easy. You remove a total of 8 screws (4 phillips screws on the front face of the pump head and 4 flathead screws to gain access to the impeller). I observed both a visual increase in flow with the upgraded impeller, as well as a better vortex with my whirlpool tube in my BK.

Here is a summary of my results, using 5 gallons of water, with about 4 feet of vertical and 2 x 3ft 1/2'' tubing.

Standard Impeller Upgraded Impeller
Trial #1 01:07.9 00:43.6
Trial #2 01:01.3 00:48.8
Trial #3 01:08.5 00:50.1
Trial #4 01:05.7 00:53.5
Trial #5 01:05.8 00:49.0
Average 66 sec 49 sec
Gal / Min 4.56 6.12
% Increase 34%

All in all, worth the $29.

 

[RonRock]

34% increase sounds like a great improvement on flow. Thanks for the effort. Still wondering how the larger impeller will effect priming. I would think it would have to help. Larger impeller leaves less room in the pump for air bubbles to cause cavitation. Along with moving more water.

 

[BrewBeemer]

34% increase sounds like a great improvement on flow. Thanks for the effort. Still wondering how the larger impeller will effect priming. I would think it would have to help. Larger impeller leaves less room in the pump for air bubbles to cause cavitation. Along with moving more water.

Remember, that HF impeller increases the max head height from 12.1' to 18.6' or from 5.3 psi to 8.01 psi. I may be off a couple hundrenths working off memory here. This added pressure should help overcome the long CFC runs as the flow resistance adds up.

 

[MrFugglz]

I forgot to add the picture. You can see the difference in size, using the screw driver as a point of reference. Why they don't make that the stock impeller on the HF series is beyond me.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

The HF impeller (The larger on in the pic above) actually has a stronger magnet then the standard 809 impellers do. All these pump were orriginaly designed for specific applications and have since been used for so many variations that over the years we have made them more or less fool proof to the point we now have. The reason for the smaller impeller on the HS models is that the motor spins at 3400RPM and places a bigger stress load on the magnetic coupling. For us, not knowing where the pump may be used we gave it a smaller impeller so the pump is less likely to de-couple. For water type applications you could use the bigger impeller out of the standard 809 (slow speed 1750rpm) and never have a problem......but once you put something heavier into the pump then the mag-drive would de-couple and you would be on the phone with us complaining!

-Walter

 

[MrFugglz]

The HF impeller (The larger on in the pic above) actually has a stronger magnet then the standard 809 impellers do. All these pump were orriginaly designed for specific applications and have since been used for so many variations that over the years we have made them more or less fool proof to the point we now have. The reason for the smaller impeller on the HS models is that the motor spins at 3400RPM and places a bigger stress load on the magnetic coupling. For us, not knowing where the pump may be used we gave it a smaller impeller so the pump is less likely to de-couple. For water type applications you could use the bigger impeller out of the standard 809 (slow speed 1750rpm) and never have a problem......but once you put something heavier into the pump then the mag-drive would de-couple and you would be on the phone with us complaining!

-Walter

Thanks for the info Walter, it makes sense.. I am guessing that 90% of the applications used with this pump are water based, but could be completely off my rocker. If that were the case, it would make more sense to have this as the standard impeller and offer the smaller one as a option. I also wish it was also easier to obtain the upgraded impeller, perhaps some suave on-line HBS will start stocking them.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

You would be surprised at where these pumps end up. I have them on school buses pumping glycol. They are in french fry machines circulating hot oil. In dairy farms pumping milk. Home radiant flooring systems. Solar hot water systems. Industrial cutting machines pumping cutting oils. X-ray machines. Some starnge and cool places....but point being that instead of making a custom pump for each application its easier to make the pump fit a wider variety of uses. Just like when they make your car...the engine is tuned for economy and the trans is tuned for a soft shift. But when you and i get the car we change thing to suit out needs and the custome tune goes into the computer and a shift kit goes into the trans and we have it the way we want it!

-Walter

 

[MrFugglz]

I'm still impressed that you and your company monitor this site and provide valuable information! Thanks again..

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

I'm still impressed that you and your company monitor this site and provide valuable information! Thanks again..

Well To be honest, this is the only site i monitor, and thats because a forum member called us up with questions and mentioned the site and to go check it out. Once here i saw the debates on the Chugger and felt the need to join just to clarify things a little. Now i just enjoy helping people out to get their pumps running properly...I also get updates via subsciptions to the threads i have replied to and once or twice a week i look through the equipment section to see if theres anything anyone needs dealing with their pumps....and dont matter if it was our pump or not...if i can help get someone going then all the better.

-Walter

 

[bendavanza]

I've been calling around "local" authorized sellers from the march pump website, and I've been quoted $32 before shipping and another was $24 plus $20 shipping for this part. I have one other vendor that is checking into it for me, but if there is a known good source, please post the vendor information.

 

[Moby]

B3 sells them for $24.00 plus shipping....it was $5.00 or so to ship to the east coast.

Ryan

 

[bendavanza]

I looked at their site, and did not find anything with a search. link?

 

[jpalarchio]

Received replacement impellers today; the difference seems fairly substantial.

 

[bendavanza]

I can attest to the upgrade improving both priming as well as flow for my whirlpool in the BK.

 

[rshosted]

I also had my chance to use my new impeller last weekend (long break from brewing). And I must say the pressure difference is amazing and substantial. My brew day went a lot smoother. I could push liquid up higher and into pots that I was unable to even think of before.

Although, i still ran into a little bit of trouble when trying to push 195 degree water to my fly sparge. About 10 times in the course of 90 minutes, I had to turn my pump off, let air bubbles evacuate the pump head (air bubbles accumulate from near boiling liquid under pressure, not from a leak). Although, it seemed to prime quicker and get back to work much quicker.

Before i had the larger impeller, I would describe the stop as a rest stop stop. Whereas now I would say more like a speed bump. I believe the new impeller makes the pump operate on a level where I would have expected it to operate when I bought it. YMMV

 

[zoso]

Walter are you still monitoring this? I took apart my pump head and found that I already had the larger impeller. My motor says 3,500 RPM and is a HS model. So what is the difference between my pump and the new HF one? Do I have some odd in between models pump?

Odd, I just check my morebeer.com order history and it says I ordered a HF, but I didn't think they were out when I ordered (11/18/10)

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Yes still here! If you measure your impeller, the "upgrade" version is 2.156 in diameter. Morebeer has thier own part numbers so i cant say for sure what you have without measureing it. And i'm not sure when they started that either...i would have to go back to sales and have them look it up.

-Walter

 

[FredTheNuke]

Walter - this is still a rip off by your company..... I have to pay MORE money to upgrade my brand new 3500rpm 809's so they'll do their job as advertised (see your website under "Beer Pumps"). $60.00 on the good 'ole net for a pair. Makes me wish I'd went with the Little Giant mag drives - they don't need an upgrade...

 

[pickles]

Yeah this seems ridiculous to me too. Although I'll probably purchase it under duress!

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Walter - this is still a phuckin rip off by your company..... I have to pay MORE money to upgrade my brand new 3500rpm 809's so they'll do their job as advertised (see your website under "Beer Pumps"). $60.00 on the good 'ole net for a pair. Makes me wish I'd went with the Little Giant mag drives - they don't need an upgrade...

What exactly is the problem that your having Fred? If properly set up, the pumps don't have any problems at all. Most of the issues people have are either with the pump heads not being oriented properly (See my tutorial) or they are trying to pump wort at a rolling boil....you suck enough bubbles through any pump and it will cavitate...even the LG. And if you wanted a pump comparable to the LG then you could have bought the AC-3B-MD and you wouldn't have to worry about the temp limits of 190*F that the LG has...

 

[FredTheNuke]

+1 for a company that actually answers!!! Mostly I am bitter about the cost of the better impellers. Due to the design of my stand I can't rotate my pump head so I have the 809s set for horizontal inlet/outlet. This is a design note for my next stand (set pumps further forward to allow pump head to be rotated and/or buy a center inlet pump. now to go find Walter's tutorial...

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

If you are facing the pump head with the motor behind it, then the inlet should be on your left and outlet on the right. You will notice the outlet is slightly higher then the inlet. That allows air to exit the pump head easiest. With it set up like that you shouldnt have any problems. If you happen to have them mounted opposite with the inlet on the right and outlet on the left then you are trapping air inside the pump head and have a 50/50 shot of not having issues on start up. Just take the 4 phillips heads screws out and flip the pump head 180* around and you will be ok. No need to remove the motors from their mounting positions.

 

[zazbnf]

Walter,

I have the following Bronze Head pump 809 BR/HS 115V. In searching I found a reference to this part number for use with Bronze pumps. 0809-0005-0100 - listed as a 2.0" inch impeller. What is the difference between this impeller and 0809-0107-0200 - 2.156" other than the obvious .156" Will the larger one work on bronze head pumps, or should I go with the 2.0" model?

Thanks,

-Walt

By the way, great name

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Walt, Go with the 0809-0107-0200 (thats the 815 impeller).....the 809-05-01 number is the 2" impeller used on the low speed pumps. if you used the 2" impeller on the HS motor, it will decouple and wont pump because it cant take the torque spinning at the higher speeds.....the 815 impeller has a stronger magnet and can take the torque and will work no problem with any of the pump heads in the 809 family...

 

[HangLoose]

Say what you want, the fact that a march rep is reading this makes me like March pumps more then I did before. Any centrifugal pump is likely to have priming issues and I'm just happy to have an economical choice. I do wish it was a stainless head though...

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

We are working on trying to get the price of the SS head down in price....its not easy finding it for cheaper in the states though...Going overseas is easy...problem is their quality control is so bad we have been burned more then a few times in the past when they change materials on us without notice.
As of right now the only part we get from overseas are the raw magnets that we have to machine and magnetize to our specs....but things are looking up as there are 2 or 3 new magnet factory's starting up in the US!!