Can i steep those grain?

[budchx]

Hi there,
I'm wondering if I can steep those grains:
Munich,Biscuit and melanoiden grains?
I guess it needs to be crunched first,but after what should I do.
I know the rule of thumb is 1lb of grain per galon of hot water(65° to 70° celsius) but I don't know for how long?
Can I steep them in a grain bag?
Thanks for your help...

 

[House12]

You can steep those grains -- however, they really require a mash to be used to their full potential. By steeping them, you will get the color and a bit of the flavor, but you will not be getting any of the fermentable sugars.

The length of time for steeping is really not crucial since there is really no meaningful conversion happening. The standard rule of thumb is somewhere around 160 F (70 C) for about 30 minutes. You can swirl it around, but you don't want to squeeze every last drop out of it...Squeezing doesn't get any more fermentables out (since you aren't getting fermentables in the first place) but can lead to increased tannin extraction...astringent taste, beer haze, etc.

I would advise you to do a "partial mash" rather than simply steeping those specialty grains. That would just require ~150 F rest for ~60 minutes instead, and could utilize those grains to their full potential. The only problem is that Biscuit Malt has a really low diastatic power -- so extracting fermentable sugars from it would require including a couple pounds of a grain with higher diastatic power as well (such as 2-row or 6-row barley). The Munich malt has a high enough Diastatic power to self-convert (as long as it is 10 SRM or below), so rather than steeping it, you might as well just do a partial mash with it.

If you are using all three specialty grains in the same recipe, you could get sugar extraction through a partial mash as long as the overall diastatic power is high enough for starch conversion (enough 10 SRM munich malt to counteract the low diastatic power of the biscuit malt...or just adding a pound of milled 2 row to the steeping bag).

 

[sweetcell]

Hi there,
I'm wondering if I can steep those grains:
Munich,Biscuit and melanoiden grains?
I guess it needs to be crunched first,but after what should I do.
I know the rule of thumb is 1lb of grain per galon of hot water(65° to 70° celsius) but I don't know for how long?
Can I steep them in a grain bag?
Thanks for your help...

all of the malts you mentioned require conversion, so they need to be mashed. the munich has enough diastatic power to convert itself but not other grains, so the melanoidin & biscuit will require the addition of 2-row or other high-DP malts.

1.25-1.5 gallons/pound of grain seems to be more common. 60*C (140*F) is a little on the low side, 67*C (152*F) is what most people aim for. 60 minutes is pretty standard.

 

[budchx]

Thanks for your advices,
Seems a bit too much for me.i did maybe 7 batches only with extract and speciality grains.
Any ideas of substitution steep grain I can use.
My plan is to brew a Leffe clone recipe...

 

[House12]

It really is not actually harder to partial mash than it is to steep. Rather than ~160 degrees (70 C) for 30 minutes, you would do ~150 degrees (65 C) for 60 minutes.
For doing those three malts, you will just need to add in about a pound of 2-row barley so that the grains will have the enzymes needed to convert the starches to fermentable sugars. Since two-row barley is what your extract is made from anyways, adding some to your steeping bag will not change the beer at all except maybe a slightly higher ABV.

Basically:
Add milled Munich, Biscuit, Melanoiden, and a pound of milled 2-row barley to a large grain bag, steep in ~150 water for ~60 minutes (~1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain). That is all. It is just a small-scale "Brew in a bag".

What we were saying is that the "Diastatic power" (the ability of the grain to convert itself from unusable starches to extractable sugars) is low on the three grains you mentioned. You can still extract them no different from steeping them like you always do, you just have to add in something with a high diastatic power (2-row or 6-row) to your steeping bag, and your steeping is suddenly a mini-mash, and you can brew just about any beer style you want to this way.

On a beer like a Leffe clone, those specialty malts are really subtle. If you steep something like crystal malt, it'd be the wrong taste, and probably come out too dark/strong. You could steep the three malts you mentioned, which would give you a bit of the flavor and coloration, but you are really better off just adding a pound of milled 2-row to your grain bag so that you can use it's enzymes to actually extract the fermentable sugars from your three specialty grains.

 

[budchx]

Thanks house,
I will try partial mash for my next brew

 

[House12]

No problem.
I happen to be a strong advocate of partial mash extract beers. Once you learn the diastatic power of different grains, you can clone most beers by just replacing the base malt with light extract, and doing a mini-mash BIAB. The more important thing than doing All Grain is focusing on healthy fermentation. Always make yeast starters if you're using liquid yeast, always pitch enough yeast, and always control fermentation temperatures for at least the first 48-72 hours.


By the way, I was listening to the most recent "Can You Brew It" in the car today, and they discuss your exact question. It's all about cloning beers with extract: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/857

 

[budchx]

Should I add 1 or 2 lbs of pilsner malt?

 

[House12]

How much of each are you planning to use?

If your recipe calls for equal parts of each, the overall Diastatic Power of the mini-mash would be 22 Lintner (you need at least 35 for conversion). Adding an equal part of Belgian Pilsner malt would bring your Diastatic Power to a comfortable level above 40.
So, if your recipe call's for 4 ounces of each, your mash will work as long as you have at least 4 ounces of Belgian Pilsner malt in there as well. If you upped that to a pound of Pilsner Malt, your Diastatic Power would be far higher at roughly 70 degrees Lintner. Keep in mind that this is only for Belgian or German Pilsner. If you are using a UK Pilsner Malt, the DP is much lower, so adding a pound to 4 ounces each of your three grains would lead to a diastatic power of around 40.

To answer your question directly -- Yes.
For a Leffe Clone, you would be wise to add a pound or two of Belgian Pilsner Malt to your mini-mash. How little you can get away with adding will depend on how much of each of your specialty grains you are planning to use.
And if you want to be real precise with the recipe, for every pound of pilsner malt you mini-mash, you can omit .75 pounds of LME or .6 pounds of DME. This is not necessary, though, since the added malt will only increase your OG by about 5 points for every pound you add.

 

[budchx]

How much of each are you planning to use?

If your recipe calls for equal parts of each, the overall Diastatic Power of the mini-mash would be 22 Lintner (you need at least 35 for conversion). Adding an equal part of Belgian Pilsner malt would bring your Diastatic Power to a comfortable level above 40.
So, if your recipe call's for 4 ounces of each, your mash will work as long as you have at least 4 ounces of Belgian Pilsner malt in there as well. If you upped that to a pound of Pilsner Malt, your Diastatic Power would be far higher at roughly 70 degrees Lintner. Keep in mind that this is only for Belgian or German Pilsner. If you are using a UK Pilsner Malt, the DP is much lower, so adding a pound to 4 ounces each of your three grains would lead to a diastatic power of around 40.

To answer your question directly -- Yes.
For a Leffe Clone, you would be wise to add a pound or two of Belgian Pilsner Malt to your mini-mash. How little you can get away with adding will depend on how much of each of your specialty grains you are planning to use.
And if you want to be real precise with the recipe, for every pound of pilsner malt you mini-mash, you can omit .75 pounds of LME or .6 pounds of DME. This is not necessary, though, since the added malt will only increase your OG by about 5 points for every pound you add.

1lbs Munich malt
5.3oz biscuit malt
3.5oz melanoiden malt
Pilsner malt(dingemans) 1 or 2 lbs

 

[House12]

With that much munich, your mash DP is around 35. To be safe, add in 1 pound of pilsner, which will give you a DP of around 55, which is more than enough enzymatic power to mash. If you want to be real safe, another pound will get you to about 66 lintner. You want at least 35 for self-conversion.

 

[budchx]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge mate...

 

[Calder]

Basically:
Add milled Munich, Biscuit, Melanoiden, and a pound of milled 2-row barley to a large grain bag, steep in ~150 water for ~60 minutes (~1.5 gallons of water per pound of grain). That is all. It is just a small-scale "Brew in a bag".

That's way too much water. The enzymes will be so diluted that they will have a hard time finding the starches, resulting in a very low efficiency (low sugar extraction).

It is generally recommended to use between 1 and 1.5 QUARTS of water per pound of grain. I use 1.3 quarts.

30 minutes at 150F is sufficient for conversion. Really want to be somewhere between 148 and 158 F. The lower the temperature the more fermentable the wort is.

Have a second pot of hot water waiting when you are done mashing. Use a similar amount of water (amount is not too critical) at 170 F. Drain the grain bag, and then sparge in the second pot (rinse out extra sugars). Then leave the bag off to the side to drain in a colander to get more of the elixir from the grains.

 

[House12]

That's way too much water. The enzymes will be so diluted that they will have a hard time finding the starches, resulting in a very low efficiency (low sugar extraction).

It is generally recommended to use between 1 and 1.5 QUARTS of water per pound of grain. I use 1.3 quarts.

30 minutes at 150F is sufficient for conversion. Really want to be somewhere between 148 and 158 F. The lower the temperature the more fermentable the wort is.

Have a second pot of hot water waiting when you are done mashing. Use a similar amount of water (amount is not too critical) at 170 F. Drain the grain bag, and then sparge in the second pot (rinse out extra sugars). Then leave the bag off to the side to drain in a colander to get more of the elixir from the grains.

Thanks for catching that. 1.5 quarts per pound. Not gallons.

 

[sweetcell]

That's way too much water. The enzymes will be so diluted that they will have a hard time finding the starches, resulting in a very low efficiency (low sugar extraction).

It is generally recommended to use between 1 and 1.5 QUARTS of water per pound of grain. I use 1.3 quarts.

i do BIAB with a lot more than 1.5 qt/lb - at least double that - and get a perfectly fine efficiency (~70%).

 

[WooHokie]

this has been a really helpful conversation for me as a bystander... thanks for the info House.

 

[geezerpk]

This is something I've never tried, but what would be the downside, or upside, of using a small amount of powered Amylase Enzyme in the steeping water to convert the starches when not enough conversion power is available in the grains being steeped? Amylase Enzyme powder can be purchased from online suppliers like Brewmasters at a reasonable price. For a small steep, 1-2 quarts, it probably require only about a 1/4 teaspoon or less for conversion as I think they recommend only a teaspoon for 5 gallons. Just a thought — and maybe a poor one.

 

[House12]

This is something I've never tried, but what would be the downside, or upside, of using a small amount of powered Amylase Enzyme in the steeping water to convert the starches when not enough conversion power is available in the grains being steeped? Amylase Enzyme powder can be purchased from online suppliers like Brewmasters at a reasonable price. For a small steep, 1-2 quarts, it probably require only about a 1/4 teaspoon or less for conversion as I think they recommend only a teaspoon for 5 gallons. Just a thought — and maybe a poor one.

It would break Reinheitsgebot!!!

But it all honesty, I couldn't speak to how well that stuff works. I have heard of people using it just as you describe with good result.

Once a partial-mash brewer understands the Diastatic Power of grains, I think it just makes a lot more sense to omit a pound of extract, and add in ~1.5 pounds of base malt.
In my opinion, one way to make the best tasting partial-mash beer you can is to maximize how much real malt you are mashing. If the original poster could mash an extra 6 pounds of Pilsner malt and then take out ~4 pounds of his pilsner extract, his mash would have ample DP, his beer would be cheaper to make, and (if mashed well) would probably make a good beer even better.

 

[geezerpk]

"if the original poster could mash an extra 6 pounds of Pilsner malt and then take out ~4 pounds of his pilsner extract …"

If you go that far, (6# Pilsner) you might as well go all grain it seems to me. BTW, I think AG about as easy as partial mash anyway. I was just making a suggestion for those who choose partial mash under the KISS rules. :-D

 

[House12]

The benefit of keeping it a partial mash is that a brewer could still brew it on the stove-top with a partial boil while probably making beer that 9/10 judges would assume is all grain. Mash half of the grain bill, boil it, and then add half the grain bill as a late addition DME or LME. The more malt you mash (properly), the better the partial mash could be...but if a person doesn't have the space/equipment for a full boil, then it doesn't make sense to go all grain.

But your point is true about the amylase. I am sure a lot of partial mash brewers would love to ignore Diastatic Power numbers and just drop in some powder. I guess I'm just not a Keep it Simple kind of brewer.

 

[Calder]

i do BIAB with a lot more than 1.5 qt/lb - at least double that - and get a perfectly fine efficiency (~70%).

I've never used more than 1.3 quarts. I may be wrong, but would expect the more water used, the longer you need for full conversion. I regularly get in excess of 80% (occasionally 90%) with a 30 minute mash.

Try using less water and see if it makes a difference. I would be interested to know the result.

 

[budchx]

So using 2 lbs of pilsner malt in my partial mash,should I boil my wort for 90 min or 60 will be fine?

 

[Calder]

If you are only using 2 lbs of Pilsner (in 5 gallons, I would use 2-row instead, then you don't have to worry about DMS. Pilsner is just a lighter version of 2-row.

 

[budchx]

Too late,I bought the pilsner already!
So 90 or 60 min boil?

 

[Calder]

I've never actually used Pilsner grain in my partial mashes. I would be interested in what people think who know something about it.

 

[House12]

Too late,I bought the pilsner already!
So 90 or 60 min boil?

Although I would advise you not to worry about it with such a low amount, remember that there are multiple factors in DMS production. Length of boil is important, but the difference between 60 minutes and 90 minutes is less crucial than the rate at which you get boiling wort down to pitching temperature. Also, the gravity of the boiling wort will also change the a amount of dms driven off.

I usually do 90 minute boils anyways. However, you won't likely have any problem if you do 60. This is because 2 pounds of Pilsner really doesn't pack very much SMM within a 5 gallon batch (low smm total = low ppm of residual DMS). Remember, DMS forms from the breakdown of SMM during heating. When the wort boils, the created DMS can dissipate. Once the boiling stops, high heat still creates more DMS, but there is no boil to drive it away. This means that more important than another 30 minutes of boiling is rapid cooling to pitching temp and healthy fermentation (yeast co2 can drive off ~50% of wort dms).

 

[budchx]

Although I would advise you not to worry about it with such a low amount, remember that there are multiple factors in DMS production. Length of boil is important, but the difference between 60 minutes and 90 minutes is less crucial than the rate at which you get boiling wort down to pitching temperature. Also, the gravity of the boiling wort will also change the a amount of dms driven off.

I usually do 90 minute boils anyways. However, you won't likely have any problem if you do 60. This is because 2 pounds of Pilsner really doesn't pack very much SMM within a 5 gallon batch (low smm total = low ppm of residual DMS). Remember, DMS forms from the breakdown of SMM during heating. When the wort boils, the created DMS can dissipate. Once the boiling stops, high heat still creates more DMS, but there is no boil to drive it away. This means that more important than another 30 minutes of boiling is rapid cooling to pitching temp and healthy fermentation (yeast co2 can drive off ~50% of wort dms).

Did it tonight and it went really well.
Thanks for your help and advises.BIAB is easy.
Hope the result will be awsome.
I will let you know.

 

[talljetsfan]

Awesome advice....Thx!

It really is not actually harder to partial mash than it is to steep. Rather than ~160 degrees (70 C) for 30 minutes, you would do ~150 degrees (65 C) for 60 minutes.
For doing those three malts, you will just need to add in about a pound of 2-row barley so that the grains will have the enzymes needed to convert the starches to fermentable sugars. Since two-row barley is what your extract is made from anyways, adding some to your steeping bag will not change the beer at all except maybe a slightly higher ABV.

Basically:
Add milled Munich, Biscuit, Melanoiden, and a pound of milled 2-row barley to a large grain bag, steep in ~150 water for ~60 minutes (~1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain). That is all. It is just a small-scale "Brew in a bag".

What we were saying is that the "Diastatic power" (the ability of the grain to convert itself from unusable starches to extractable sugars) is low on the three grains you mentioned. You can still extract them no different from steeping them like you always do, you just have to add in something with a high diastatic power (2-row or 6-row) to your steeping bag, and your steeping is suddenly a mini-mash, and you can brew just about any beer style you want to this way.

On a beer like a Leffe clone, those specialty malts are really subtle. If you steep something like crystal malt, it'd be the wrong taste, and probably come out too dark/strong. You could steep the three malts you mentioned, which would give you a bit of the flavor and coloration, but you are really better off just adding a pound of milled 2-row to your grain bag so that you can use it's enzymes to actually extract the fermentable sugars from your three specialty grains.