Can I fix the smokey/ashtray off flavor in my stout?

[mbeall]

My stout has finished fermenting and when I tasted the hydro sample, it has a distinct smokey off-flavor like an ashtray. I couldn't finish the sample.

I have researched Phenolic off flavors and causes could be chlorine, infection, or over sparging among others.
- I use 1/2 campden tablet to 10 gallons and treat all water.
- I have never had an infection before (several years of brewing) and I am very careful about sanitation. This batch is in 2 different plastic buckets.
- I fly sparge on average of 90 minutes for 13 gallons preboil.
- Also, I made a 4 liter starter and pitched two vials of WLP007. Shouldn't be under-pitched.
- And have a fermentation chamber set at 68*.

My equipment is eHerms with 5500W ULD (Camco) heating elements. I am leaning toward the elements having scorched wort on them and imparting this flavor. I do clean them with a scouring pad but do distinctly remember some black flaky crud on them with this brew (that I must have missed).

I did brew a brown ale the next week and actually really cleaned the elements since I noticed the crud and it has fermented and tastes great.

So, is there anything I can do with flavor additions in secondary to help reduce the overwhelming smokey/ashtray flavor?? This batch "was" going to get 8 oz of Makers mark with 2.5 oz french oak medium char added to it (5 gallons).

Please help my beer!

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Bowtiebrewery]

Hey sorry to say, no you can't save that... I had that same issue with my elements where the actual element itself was disintegrating, and the black outer coating was coming off into the beer!

Don't just scrub and clean... Take a look at the elements very closely. If any of that outer coating is coming off. Replace it immediately!

 

[Bowtiebrewery]

Just as an FYI... I tried to mask that flavor and i just ended up getting rid of the beer in the long run.

 

[mbeall]

Thanks for the info. It may be the outer coating. I'll pull the element out and see if it is damaged or just has some crud I missed. Although I did brew the next week and my brown came out perfect.

 

[Bowtiebrewery]

Here's hoping that its just crud!

 

[BigFloyd]

I'd not want to judge a stout by what it tastes like at this early stage.

It could be 1) truly scorched by the herms element (and not salvageable) or it could just need a few months to mature. I made a milk chocolate stout once that tasted like smokey soy sauce after three weeks in the bottles. At 3 months, that off-flavor was gone and the beer good. At 6 months, it was amazing.

 

[Homercidal]

If you are using a 5500ULD element I wouldn't expect scorching on an EHERMS rig. Maybe on a RIMS system if certain things were to happen.

My best guess is that you have young stout. Some of those dark grains can taste pretty rough at the start. I'd finish the batch up as normal, give it a few weeks to mellow and taste again.

 

[mbeall]

I'm hoping it is just young. I have brewed this recipe before and it was amazing. I also tasted it throughout it's aging process and no smokey or ashy flavors.

I read some posts about Carafa III when used in too high of a percentage, can cause ashy flavors. Here is my grain bill.

77.0 % 2 Row
12.0 % Vienna Malt
5.0 % Carafa III (525.0 SRM)
5.0 % Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM)
1.0 % Caraaroma (130.0 SRM)

Is 5.0% too much Carafa III?

 

[wxman73]

Call it a smoked stout. Problem solved.

 

[mbeall]

I would except the hydro sample was so smokey, I couldn't drink it!

 

[douglasbarbin]

If it's HERMS, then the wort never comes into contact with the element, so that couldn't possibly be it.

 

[Hello]

If it's HERMS, then the wort never comes into contact with the element, so that couldn't possibly be it.

Not even on the boil kettle? Because I believe my wort will be in a kettle with an element.

 

[Homercidal]

Not even on the boil kettle? Because I believe my wort will be in a kettle with an element.

THAT is a possibility, but that is separate from the HERMS process.

And I would expect the same result for most beers boiled on the same system.

 

[Hello]

THAT is a possibility, but that is separate from the HERMS process.

And I would expect the same result for most beers boiled on the same system.

OH! I guess I was just calling it all HERMS...though now that I think about it, I know better.

 

[MindenMan]

To my taste, Carafa III smells like an ashtray when dry. I will bet it was the Carafa III. Do you have storage space to lay it down for 6 or so months? I don't believe the ashtray taste will completely go away, but given time, it will mellow considerably. Just a thought...

 

[mbeall]

Not even on the boil kettle? Because I believe my wort will be in a kettle with an element.

The element in question is in the boil kettle. The herms coil is in the HLT and never gets wort in it.

 

[mbeall]

To my taste, Carafa III smells like an ashtray when dry. I will bet it was the Carafa III. Do you have storage space to lay it down for 6 or so months? I don't believe the ashtray taste will completely go away, but given time, it will mellow considerably. Just a thought...

I do have space and will set it aside while aging. I'm believing more and more that is was the Carafa III.

 

[Bowtiebrewery]

Did you get a chance to inspect the element yet? Like I said if that outer coating is starting to flake off, that will impart that ashtray taste to a beer.

 

[mbeall]

Ok, here is a picture after the last brew. Looks like some scorching. This was a brown ale with no smokey flavor.

 

[mbeall]

One more

 

[jcaudill]

Most likely the Carafa-III - even though I dislike the Camco elements because those things rust out fast. Anyway - 5% is max in batch and you were right there. Let it age and see if it settles out - if not you have a couple of options: 1) Make another batch with no or little Carafa-III then blend the two. 2) Try to mask it with oak spirals and bourbon. It's amazing what 6-12 months can do for a stout.

 

[mbeall]

The element is scorched but it didn't affect the flavor of the American Brown Ale I just made.

I'm tending to agree with you about the Carafa-III. I really had no idea it could make that flavor. This recipe is based off of a Victory Storm King Stout and I have brewed before with no smokey favors, so that baffles me a bit but I'll surely cut back on the Carafa-III in the future. I have 2.5 oz of French oak with a med char sitting in about 8oz of Markers Mark Bourbon. That is going into the fermenter this weekend. We will see how this ages out.

edit: I also like your idea of making another batch and blending them. That is doable!

Thanks for all of the feedback everyone!

Mike

 

[augiedoggy]

THAT is a possibility, but that is separate from the HERMS process.

And I would expect the same result for most beers boiled on the same system.

From everything I have read Its more likely to happen with heavier or beers with more proteins and solids floating around in them...
Especially if they get a chance to settle on the element while heating the wort prior to the boil... many see this when stopping mid boil and then reboiling without properly re-agitating the wort prior to the boiling point.
I use a 4500w ULWD element to help even further with this since its an even lower watt density than the 5500w versions which are overkill for 10g or smaller.
I made a smoked beer recently and added too much smoked malt... planned on mixing in another batch but after leaving it in the conical for another month it really mellowed out.

 

[kwadric]

I accidentally used black patent malt instead or roasted barley. The RIS came out ashtray roasty. I poured an 8oz glass and added drops of vanilla extract until the ashtray went away. Then I added drops until I knew what too much tasted like. I measured how many drops of water were in a teaspoon with the same dropper... And then did some math. I calculated 0.5 teaspoons for 5 gallons. So I added 0.25 teaspoons to the keg. You can always add more, but you can't take it out.

I know it doesn't sound like much extract, but it mellowed out the smoky roast my RIS a lot. Give it a try in glass of your beer. But you need to use the real vanilla extract not the imitation.

 

[mbeall]

kwadric, thanks for the input. I'm going to pick some vanilla extract up and try it in a glass. Will report back.