calculating pitch rate for low phenol, high ester hefe

[Brewsterguy]

Hey guys,

Just as the title says. How to calculate pitch rate for low clove flavor hefe?
My recipe is extract with steeping grains, 50\50 on the wheat\light dme, 3068 liquid yeast, 21L and gonna try and do 23-24C fermentation during first few days.
I was thinking of calculating a about 70 billion cells total pitch. thoughts?

 

[VikeMan]

You can encourage more banana by using a low pitch rate. The banana aroma/flavor is isoamyl acetate, an ester. And esters, all else being equal, are increased when yeast growth is maximized. The exact amount to pitch is more art than science. But just be aware that if taken too far, underpitching can cause things like high fusel alcohols, under-attenuation, high diacetyl, high sulfur compounds, and high acetaldehyde.

Also, many people will recommend using no yeast nutrients, in order to "stress" the yeast into making esters. But yeast nutrients will encourage yeast growth, which we want here. And I've never seen any evidence that depriving yeast of nitrogen increases esters.

As an aside, a typical hefeweizen includes at least 50% wheat. Your wheat DME is already a blend of barley malt and wheat malt. If Briess, it's 65/35 Wheat/Barley. Doing half and half Wheat DME and Light DME reduces the combined wheat content to less than a third.

 

[Jag75]

I've had luck pitching wlp300 without starters.

 

[Brewsterguy]

You can encourage more banana by using a low pitch rate. The banana aroma/flavor is isoamyl acetate, an ester. And esters, all else being equal, are increased when yeast growth is maximized. The exact amount to pitch is more art than science. But just be aware that if taken too far, underpitching can cause things like high fusel alcohols, under-attenuation, high diacetyl, high sulfur compounds, and high acetaldehyde.

Also, many people will recommend using no yeast nutrients, in order to "stress" the yeast into making esters. But yeast nutrients will encourage yeast growth, which we want here. And I've never seen any evidence that depriving yeast of nitrogen increases esters.

As an aside, a typical hefeweizen includes at least 50% wheat. Your wheat DME is already a blend of barley malt and wheat malt. If Briess, it's 65/35 Wheat/Barley. Doing half and half Wheat DME and Light DME reduces the combined wheat content to less than a third.

Thank you for the explanation and especially regarding the note of wheat dme ingredients. I will be sure to contact the store and change my order!
Does more wheat in my batch, make it basically more\less clovy? I ask as obviously wheat malt will also either contribute or not contribute to the phenol\ester flavors.

 

[hottpeper13]

Can't speek to that yeast but I used 3333 with a slight over pitch and started fermentation at 68* for 3 days(1.050) then to 72 for 1 day then to 76 for the remainder of a 3 week primary. Absolutely no clove(I detest it) and a chewy banana mouthfeel.

 

[AlexKay]

There's always Bananza.

 

[Rob2010SS]

We go the opposite route with ours. We try and coax out as much clove as possible and reduce the banana. Don't care for the banana ester in hefe's at all.

The only thing I'd add which I think has been said already is ferment warmer, at the top of the yeasts range to encourage more banana.

 

[Brewsterguy]

UPDATE:
a taste from the primary gives a distinct clove and banana flavor, with more of clove, but not bad as I thought and not as bad as my friends wheat beers were.
my beer is a dunkel weinsthepaner and cant wait to bottle and taste a better conditioned beer.