Build vs Buy

[jbedell2]

I've decided to move from outdoor, propane-fired BIAB to a basement recirculating eBIAB setup. Thanks to everyone here for all the great threads I've been digging through in recent weeks.

I know there are plenty of threads comparing various systems (Brew-Boss, High Gravity, CO Brewing Systems, Grainfather, etc.), but all of these threads seem to contain a few posts along the lines of "just build your own for 1/3 the cost." The thing is, I don't understand how anyone could actually build a system for much less than these pre-built systems cost.

Consider this basic parts list:
Kettle - Bayou Classic, Amazon, $153
Element - BoilCoil, High Gravity, $170
Pump - Chuger SS, Amazon, $140
Panel - eBIAB kit, ebrewsupply, $385
Various Fittings - bargainfittings, $50-100

So this is about $950. The panel would still take at least a few hours to assemble, I'd have to drill the kettle, etc. I could probably save a little money with a traditional element, but when you add the housing, cord, plug, etc., it's not that much cheaper.

How could one build a quality system from scratch for much less than this? I also need to add a utility sink, vent hood, GFCI breaker, etc., so trying to manage costs wherever possible.

Thanks!

 

[itsnotrequired]

look for used equipment on ebay and craigslist. you can typically source the brew panel components yourself for lower cost that something packaged from ebrew. of course, this approach requires some research, poking around on the internet, possibly being shipped faulty/wrong components, etc. there are some 'bells and whistles' on those packaged kits that you don't necessarily need, you could save costs there but we aren't talking about hundreds of dollars though.

 

[steveoatley]

jbedell2

I bought a Controller
While i did the rest of the build myself.

I drilled all the holes, i mounted all the valves.
I built the walls, i hung the insulation, sheets of FRP, i even ran some plumbing

I decided it was best to leave to the professional the other stuff
I hired a Electrician to run my lights, and the 240 v power
I bought a controller - instead of building one myself

For the same reason i do not build a Microwave oven - i understand how it works -doesn't mean i want build my own

While you can learn almost anything on Youtube, i wanted someone who really knew what they were doing to put together my controller.

Plumbing can leak, but 240 V & 30 amps can kill ya

There are so many talented Electrical "engineers" here on HBT
that can whip up a panel in a weekend..... but thats not me

I look at all those drawings with Red Green Black lines drawn between the switched and SSR's - and all i see is French
( i can not understand French either )

just my 2 cents.
S

 

[steveoatley]

"I also need to add a utility sink, vent hood, GFCI breaker, etc., so trying to manage costs wherever possible."

Oh, yeah - and this stuff

will add up to more than your brew system

1. towels - paper is wasteful
2. a stool or chair to sit in
3. gotta have a tv or radio near by
3. that extra plastic shelving to hold everything
4. all the little Stuff adds up fast, and ends up equaling more !!

2 more cents for ya

S

 

[Nyalex]

I'm just finishing up acquiring all my parts. I picked up a second hand kettle. If you have the patience to watch the forums for a few months, you might end up saving money. If you can reuse your old kettle that will be a big savings. The little things add up though. To drill your kettle, you should get a greenlee punch. Thats around $50. A spa panel is going to be $100 at a minimum after you include the cords. I like building things myself, so there is some value in doing it myself vs. getting a turn key system shipped to me. I think if i were to go back a few weeks, i would get the unibrau system. My current setup will be able to do 10 gallon batches, but i dont see myself doing that very often. For 5 gallon batches, i think thats the best. It also has the advantage of being 120v. If you want the bigger batch option, my cost is going to be pretty close to a co brewing systems setup. Your vent hood might satisfy your diy itch.

Long story short - I have found your research to be accurate. Going with a cheaper pump and used parts will help, but the savings aren't what I'd hoped.

 

[BrunDog]

This decision is a tough one - and one that most people are not honest with themselves when undertaking a project. When you buy an engineered solution, you are paying for the parts, labor, design and testing (engineering aspect). Most threads I see here (not trying to condemn anyone, just put the facts on the table), folks discuss cheap parts off ebay, and frequently do not assign any value to their time/labor, and they never assign value to the design/engineering part.

The reality is that building a quality one-off design, even where you have the background skills/experience, is not worth your time. If you are not an expert in mechanical/electrical design/building/debugging, then it really is not worth the money and hassle. UNLESS... and this is the big one... UNLESS you are interested in learning, practicing, solving problems, doing it as a hobby, etc. There is a lot of value in that. Personally, I enjoyed building my system (and still update it with improvements) and I think I did it in a modular fashion where I didn't have to go backwards too much, but I know by math I put an unfathomable amount of hours in and have a pile of spare parts I un-did, changed, ruined, etc. If I were to build it again, it would certainly be very much cheaper and faster. Well, that's what you get from an off the self solution.

So its a personal decision. But if saving money (that which you can and cannot touch) is really the end goal, then buy one.

 

[30Bones]

I got "lucky" and got this bench with an integrated control panel for $50. I am rewiring a lot of it, new PID, etc. Already had the cooler, pump, CFC. Building the e-keggle now. Plan for this is temporary, future plan is to go BIAB and I agree buying turn key is not that much more. Even if I use the controls I have now CO Brewing will charge me $550 for a 20 gallon kettle when I can buy a turn key for $875 and get rid of my bulky and less streamlined control panel/bench combo. I am not good at wiring so it's not something I enjoy even if the cost savings was great.

As of today I am into this build for $650 and that includes buying a utility sink new, GFCI panel new, exhaust fan new. What's left is running the 240V, tweaking the control panel, installing the vent and plumbing the sink

 

[itsnotrequired]

The reality is that building a quality one-off design, even where you have the background skills/experience, is not worth your time. If you are not an expert in mechanical/electrical design/building/debugging, then it really is not worth the money and hassle. UNLESS... and this is the big one... UNLESS you are interested in learning, practicing, solving problems, doing it as a hobby, etc. There is a lot of value in that. Personally, I enjoyed building my system (and still update it with improvements) and I think I did it in a modular fashion where I didn't have to go backwards too much, but I know by math I put an unfathomable amount of hours in and have a pile of spare parts I un-did, changed, ruined, etc. If I were to build it again, it would certainly be very much cheaper and faster. Well, that's what you get from an off the self solution.

that's what's nice about the kits. you get all the parts at once and have at least some type of guarantee that the stuff is good. i recently pulled the trigger on one of the ebrew kits. $1000 for a kit vs $1550 for them to put it together. worth it to me to go with the kit, especially if they will pre-cut the box. i'm sure i could have saved a couple hundred bucks sourcing all the parts myself or even more buying super-cheap components but it just wasn't worth it to me. and i just know i would cut one of the enclosure openings off-center and be annoyed forever.

and their kit includes temp probes and incoming cable/plug. they have a similar kit which omits the enclosure, plugs, pids and wire/connectors. that one is only about $300.

 

[BrunDog]

INR that's funny! I would be the EXACT same way. The paint I used on my control boxes was a combo of metallic effect paint, topcoated with clear enamel. Despite them being both Rustoleum brand, and no warnings to the contrary, the combination made for very soft, chip-able paint. Just from handling there are smudges, chips, etc. and it irks the crap out of me. So much that I almost took apart the whole control board to repaint it. With nearly 35 panel connectors all wired in, it would have been a disaster, and opted to live with it!

 

[iijakii]

A few years ago the field didn't have many good options and you could easily save half by DIY (not counting your time). Entirely different these days, lots of slick and affordable systems on the market.

 

[itsnotrequired]

INR that's funny! I would be the EXACT same way. The paint I used on my control boxes was a combo of metallic effect paint, topcoated with clear enamel. Despite them being both Rustoleum brand, and no warnings to the contrary, the combination made for very soft, chip-able paint. Just from handling there are smudges, chips, etc. and it irks the crap out of me. So much that I almost took apart the whole control board to repaint it. With nearly 35 panel connectors all wired in, it would have been a disaster, and opted to live with it!

it was a $200 upgrade to go with a stainless enclosure and that wasn't worth it to me. so i'm going the painted route, need to do a good job sanding/priming to get it to look good. they pre-cut an enclosure that is already painted from the factory but the cutting process (laser) mucks up the paint around the cuts.

 

[BrunDog]

Ya. Don't mix and match like I tried to do!

 

[BeardedBrews]

I went the "for 1/3 the cost" route when I built my e-BIAB rig:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=550270

This decision is a tough one - and one that most people are not honest with themselves when undertaking a project

BrunDog nailed it here, it's very hard to stay honest with yourself about how much you spend in an upgrade. I thought I would be in the thing $100-200 but by the end it was every bit of $350 for me to switch from a smaller pot on a propane burner over to an electric keg. $100 locally for the pump, and 50-60 in clamps and tubing, brings the whole kit to $500. I'm honestly not sure how I could have done it for any less.

I enjoyed the process of shopping / picking parts, and while it did take a few hours of shopping, more time was spent making sure the parts I picked would work together. I really wanted to get a mix of simple and automatic.

My automation isn't perfect, but I can set my PID for strike temperature in the morning and come back ready to dough-in when ever I find time. Then setting the PID to a manual 4-5% while running the pump on low(ish) will keep the mash from dropping. After that it's just a lift and boil operation.

 

[Stillraining]

jbedell2



I look at all those drawings with Red Green Black lines drawn between the switched and SSR's - and all i see is French
( i can not understand French either )

just my 2 cents.
S

Amen Brother!

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

This decision is a tough one - and one that most people are not honest with themselves when undertaking a project. When you buy an engineered solution, you are paying for the parts, labor, design and testing (engineering aspect). Most threads I see here (not trying to condemn anyone, just put the facts on the table), folks discuss cheap parts off ebay, and frequently do not assign any value to their time/labor, and they never assign value to the design/engineering part.

The reality is that building a quality one-off design, even where you have the background skills/experience, is not worth your time. If you are not an expert in mechanical/electrical design/building/debugging, then it really is not worth the money and hassle. UNLESS... and this is the big one... UNLESS you are interested in learning, practicing, solving problems, doing it as a hobby, etc. There is a lot of value in that. Personally, I enjoyed building my system (and still update it with improvements) and I think I did it in a modular fashion where I didn't have to go backwards too much, but I know by math I put an unfathomable amount of hours in and have a pile of spare parts I un-did, changed, ruined, etc. If I were to build it again, it would certainly be very much cheaper and faster. Well, that's what you get from an off the self solution.

So its a personal decision. But if saving money (that which you can and cannot touch) is really the end goal, then buy one.

To add to this, Personally i think understanding HOW your panel works is important, so you should factor that as a positive for DIY. Knowing how your $400+ panel functions and how to fix your panel when(not if) something goes out in a year or two is a big plus of DIY.

So even if you end up buying one, you should try to increase your knowledge and atleast understand the basics of how the Switches, Contactors, PID's and SSR's all work in a typical Electric brew panel. That way you can keep an eye on the panel to make sure nothings wrong month to month, and when something does go wrong you can fix it.

 

[passedpawn]

I'd save and buy today. I built mine in '09 and I don't remember too much available then (was there anything then?).

 

[30Bones]

it was a $200 upgrade to go with a stainless enclosure and that wasn't worth it to me. so i'm going the painted route, need to do a good job sanding/priming to get it to look good. they pre-cut an enclosure that is already painted from the factory but the cutting process (laser) mucks up the paint around the cuts.

Get it powedercoated

 

[itsnotrequired]

Get it powedercoated

hadn't really though about that. i live in a more rural area but did find a guy who quoted my $50 to coat it. got a line on another guy, he might be a bit cheaper but a longer drive. sure would make the thing bombproof though. it will probably cost me $20 in paint/sandpaper plus a bunch of elbow work to do it myself. sounds like it is worth the extra $20-30...

 

[30Bones]

Can of primer, can of paint and some time cleaning it should be fine if you watch what you are doing. I wouldn't pay more than $30 for what it is.

 

[jbedell2]

Wow - thanks for all the great replies!!! Glad to hear I'm not just missing something that would allow me to build a comparable system for $400.

I like the idea of building the panel, but would definitely want to use a kit. I have electronics background so would feel comfortable doing that, but would want a clear diagram to follow and don't feel like cutting the box or sourcing all the parts individually. So ebrew would be a good option for that.

I would never try to install a spa panel or GFCI breaker myself. I would hire an electrician to do that.

At the end of the day, given all the helpful replies here, I think I will buy something preconfigured. I really like the CO Brewing design with the basket and the ability to whirlpool, plus the tri fittings, but their included panel seems pretty lame (no pump control? really?). High Gravity also seems like a very good option. I thought I had it narrowed down to those two, but today I started reading the 68-page Grainfather thread, and now that seems like a real possibility too - esp since I wouldn't need to do any electrical work and could brew anywhere.

Oh well - I guess having too many good options is a pretty good problem to have

Thanks again for all the input so far!

 

[BeardedBrews]

I always thought the HoseHead system seemed cool, but there are mixed feelings about the design on this forum.

 

[30Bones]

Wow - thanks for all the great replies!!! Glad to hear I'm not just missing something that would allow me to build a comparable system for $400.



I like the idea of building the panel, but would definitely want to use a kit. I have electronics background so would feel comfortable doing that, but would want a clear diagram to follow and don't feel like cutting the box or sourcing all the parts individually. So ebrew would be a good option for that.



I would never try to install a spa panel or GFCI breaker myself. I would hire an electrician to do that.



At the end of the day, given all the helpful replies here, I think I will buy something preconfigured. I really like the CO Brewing design with the basket and the ability to whirlpool, plus the tri fittings, but their included panel seems pretty lame (no pump control? really?). High Gravity also seems like a very good option. I thought I had it narrowed down to those two, but today I started reading the 68-page Grainfather thread, and now that seems like a real possibility too - esp since I wouldn't need to do any electrical work and could brew anywhere.



Oh well - I guess having too many good options is a pretty good problem to have



Thanks again for all the input so far!

Ebrew DIY kit with a pre punched stainless box isn't much less than what they sell the same box already wired. DIY makes zero sense to me there on a BIAB controller. Maybe savings come into play when you do a larger panel I don't know.

That's my biggest gripe about the CO setup is no pump control and it's just too plain. The next step up with a stand and hoist setup jumps that price up fast.

 

[TexasWine]

Consider this basic parts list:
Kettle - Bayou Classic, Amazon, $153
Element - BoilCoil, High Gravity, $170
Pump - Chuger SS, Amazon, $140

Get a cheap concord kettle on ebay for $100, $50 in savings.

Don't use the boil coil. Get hot water heater elements for a fraction of the cost. That would save you $125 or so by the time you buy an enclosure like the Hot Pod.

Use a 24v DC pump instead. That should save you another $100.

So there ya go, I just trimmed $275 off your project!

Personally, I bought a premade system from Brau Supply. For me buying rather than assembling made more sense. And my 2¢, I don't think the Grainfather is worth what they're charging. You can buy a much more robust system than the Grainfather for a fraction of the cost.

 

[WScottCross]

Get a cheap concord kettle on ebay for $100, $50 in savings.

Don't use the boil coil. Get hot water heater elements for a fraction of the cost. That would save you $125 or so by the time you buy an enclosure like the Hot Pod.

Use a 24v DC pump instead. That should save you another $100.

So there ya go, I just trimmed $275 off your project!

Personally, I bought a premade system from Brau Supply. For me buying rather than assembling made more sense. And my 2¢, I don't think the Grainfather is worth what they're charging. You can buy a much more robust system than the Grainfather for a fraction of the cost.

I agree with the kettle recommendation and I have no experience with 24VDC pumps so I can't comment there.

The hot pod alternative may be built cheaper, but I think your estimate of building it for less than $50 is overly optimistic. You need the element, a box to put it in, the wiring, a way to waterproof it, etc.

 

[steveoatley]

this is why i did not build my own

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7344647#post7344647

just 2 more cents

Steve

 

[TexasWine]

I agree with the kettle recommendation and I have no experience with 24VDC pumps so I can't comment there.

The hot pod alternative may be built cheaper, but I think your estimate of building it for less than $50 is overly optimistic. You need the element, a box to put it in, the wiring, a way to waterproof it, etc.

Hot Pod $26
Element $14
Total $40

But, looks like I forgot to account for the cord and plug.

 

[LandoLincoln]

I've decided to move from outdoor, propane-fired BIAB to a basement recirculating eBIAB setup. Thanks to everyone here for all the great threads I've been digging through in recent weeks.

I know there are plenty of threads comparing various systems (Brew-Boss, High Gravity, CO Brewing Systems, Grainfather, etc.), but all of these threads seem to contain a few posts along the lines of "just build your own for 1/3 the cost." The thing is, I don't understand how anyone could actually build a system for much less than these pre-built systems cost.

Consider this basic parts list:
Kettle - Bayou Classic, Amazon, $153
Element - BoilCoil, High Gravity, $170
Pump - Chuger SS, Amazon, $140
Panel - eBIAB kit, ebrewsupply, $385
Various Fittings - bargainfittings, $50-100

So this is about $950. The panel would still take at least a few hours to assemble, I'd have to drill the kettle, etc. I could probably save a little money with a traditional element, but when you add the housing, cord, plug, etc., it's not that much cheaper.

How could one build a quality system from scratch for much less than this? I also need to add a utility sink, vent hood, GFCI breaker, etc., so trying to manage costs wherever possible.

Thanks!

You have to dig around for bargains. If you bought everything new from the usual suspects (Amazon, etc) you'd save a bit of money. If you buy some things used off of Ebay you'll save a lot.

I bought 25g SS pots (new) off of Ebay for about $120 shipped, each. Do a search for "CONCORD Polished Stainless Steel Stock Pot" and you'll find them in a range of sizes.

My elements cost about $30 each, new, off of Amazon. They aren't the Blichmann coil type.

Got my Chugger pump from brewhardware.com for cheaper than Amazon.

I got a used SS panel enclosure for about $50 off of Ebay. It's a nice big one. Filling it full of the electrical components that I wanted was pretty pricey, but I got exactly what I wanted and did not get what I didn't want.

I learned a heck of a lot from the building process and have a brew system that I'm very proud of and it cost me way less than other pre-made systems. Building it was a pain in the ass on a few steps, but I made it through well enough.

 

[augiedoggy]

My build thread below is full of links and prices for components I used.. I also got my kettles new for about $120 each with a ballvalve hole drilled and the valve (16 gallon Bayous) the deals are out there.. Some have no ability to build one I guess and some are just too lazy to look for deals so they claim it cant be done for less when the truth is a lot of the stuff sold at higher prices is the same quality generic products sold direct for less on ebay or aliexpress.

This panel cost me less than $300 to build.. it has speed control and power for my 3 24v dc pumps (3gpm) and float kill switches for my rims and HLT element. it controls 3 elements. with an alarm for all pids and timer.

And Ive been using it for about 3 years now and aver 60 brew sessions now...

my 3 stainless conical fermenters along with the diy temp control panel and valve setup with cooling jackets and manifold and heaters cost me just over $1000 not including the free chiller I scored from the trash at work. (4th plastic conical was a $50 craigslist special I havent hooked up to my temp control yet.)

all together I have less than $ 2500 in my brewery not including the kegs.

Why are you considering a boil coil at $170 vs $50 for a stainless ULWD ripple element (Like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/321917164405?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT) with a hot pod enclosure? it wont have any real advantage except the shorter detachable power cord .. These things add up.

 

[augiedoggy]

this is why i did not build my own

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7344647#post7344647

just 2 more cents

Steve

That would be a very good point except 2 things...

1) That thread is about a control panel that was purchased and not made by the OP of that thread,

2) if the OP had made it they would likely have a much easier time troubleshooting the issue and getting it up and running...

3) If that person had bought a panel with a warranty such as you did he would have to wait for help and not attempt to open the panel and check the ssr indicator light because it would void their warranty.. Instead he or she would have to mail it back to the builder and wait to brew...


To me it seems you just made a better case for DIY instead of against it..

And No I dont want people to take that as me saying building your own is always the best option... just that its not that simple for everyone...

There are a lot of people that would also pay an electrician $100 to change a 50 cent light switch because they are afraid of electricity or just dont care o take the time because to them it isnt worth $100 they would save.. and In That scenario all it takes is flipping the breaker and swapping the switch out 5 -10 minutes later and your all done... For some thats common sense and for others not so much....well I think they wound be better off buying one... same as someone who feels they just dont want to do it and it would be a waste of their time... But it doesnt mean that those who do want to make their own cant do it for much less than the off the self options.

So OP are you a hands on sort ? If so then this could be a good option. I will say the wiring can be frustrating and take a while. its a good feeling when your done though.. its kind of like a hobby in itself.

 

[Beavdowg]

Audiedoggy,

So, how would I go about adding a 30A GFCI breaker to my breaker panel and a 240V outlet right under the panel? Oh, apparently I have to also "twin up" some existing breaker switches to make room for the GFCI breaker, so how do I do that too?

thanks

 

[augiedoggy]

Audiedoggy,

So, how would I go about adding a 30A GFCI breaker to my breaker panel and a 240V outlet right under the panel? Oh, apparently I have to also "twin up" some existing breaker switches to make room for the GFCI breaker, so how do I do that too?

thanks

Well if your serious and not just trying to be negative here, Start your own thread on running power since it doesnt have anything to do with this one really..
Then Take a pic of your panel with the coverplate off if you can an post it there.. I shouldnt have to mention this but I will anyway, Dont touch any wires or metal bars behind the breakers... 240v can kill you instantly unlike 120v. If you cant remember this pay someone else to do it for you..
This way we can see what your dealing with... Depending on what kind of space you have now it may be an easy install. what makes you think you have to twin up your existing breakers? are you out of space in your panel? if you know that already you should also know what im talking about.
Either way its actually very easy as long as your careful.

I wasnt aware it was called that but "twining up 2 breakers" is nothing more than using a special breaker with 2 inputs and switches that takes up one single slot normally filled with a switch twice its size. I've always referred to them as tandem breakers. there are articles such as this one http://structuretech1.com/2012/02/tandem-circuit-breakers/ Which can be useful in seeing what your safe and up to code options are.

I bought a basic wiring book at the home depot when I had to install my first 60a 240v gfci line for my hot tub 15 years ago... It explained the simple process pretty well.

 

[xandersaml]

Get a cheap concord kettle on ebay for $100, $50 in savings.

Don't use the boil coil. Get hot water heater elements for a fraction of the cost. That would save you $125 or so by the time you buy an enclosure like the Hot Pod.

Use a 24v DC pump instead. That should save you another $100.

So there ya go, I just trimmed $275 off your project!

Personally, I bought a premade system from Brau Supply. For me buying rather than assembling made more sense. And my 2¢, I don't think the Grainfather is worth what they're charging. You can buy a much more robust system than the Grainfather for a fraction of the cost.

I'm curious as to what you would recommend as a much more robust system than the Grainfather for a fraction of the cost.

 

[madscientist451]

I've decided to move from outdoor, propane-fired BIAB to a basement recirculating eBIAB setup. Thanks to everyone here for all the great threads I've been digging through in recent weeks.

I
How could one build a quality system from scratch for much less ...................trying to manage costs wherever possible.

Thanks!

How many gallon batches do you want to brew?

 

[PeteNMA]

240v can kill you instantly unlike 120v

Not true. 120V will kill you just as dead as 240V.

 

[augiedoggy]

Not true. 120V will kill you just as dead as 240V.

Ok since you're looking to argue semantics
What I meant and though people would understand is 240v is more deadly than 120v is MOST situations.
120v CAN kill you but it usually takes more than a simple zap from a 120v household circuit...I've been zapped with 120v many times over the years and always been fine. Just shaken up. if that eaxact same exposure had been 240v I would likely have not walked away.
240v is much more likely to kill you in much less time....

but yes there are many cases where 120v houshold circuit is deadly like grabbing a 120v line with a closed fist or while standing in a puddle of water which will increase your exposure time. Yes 120v can kill you, it is still dangerous. But 240v can stop your heart in less than a half a second before you feel anything.

 

[PeteNMA]

Nope. It's all about the path of the current through the body. You can easily be killed by 12V applied such that the current travels across your chest. Voltage is not what matters when it comes to electrical safety, current is what kills you. And even 15A off a standard residential circuit can be plenty.

240V will certainly hurt a lot more if you make contact in a "safe" manner (sadly I write this from experience), but 120V circuits should be accorded the same level of respect, even if they hurt less on minor contact.

 

[iijakii]

Accidentally shocked myself years ago unplugging my dryer. Whole body tensed up and tingled, heart started racing. Scared me. Always have flipped the breaker since then when unplugging 240v.

 

[TexasWine]

I'm curious as to what you would recommend as a much more robust system than the Grainfather for a fraction of the cost.

Just my opinion, but I feel the Brau Supply system I have is an example of a better value and more robust system when compared to the Grainfather. Again, just my opinion. I know folks love their Grainfathers and I'm not trying to ruffle their feathers.

The Brau Supply at $665 versus the Grainfather at $900, at almost double the wattage (2 x 1500 vs 1 x 1650), and the fact that the Brau Supply is completely serviceable by me but the Grainfather has parts that aren't even accessible, is controlled by a PID (with a timer and alarm) instead of an analog controller. All this weighed heavily in my decision.

Hope this helps clarify what I was driving at.

 

[augiedoggy]

Nope. It's all about the path of the current through the body. You can easily be killed by 12V applied such that the current travels across your chest. Voltage is not what matters when it comes to electrical safety, current is what kills you. And even 15A off a standard residential circuit can be plenty.

240V will certainly hurt a lot more if you make contact in a "safe" manner (sadly I write this from experience), but 120V circuits should be accorded the same level of respect, even if they hurt less on minor contact.

Again your just trying to make things confusing to prove your point..I know exactly what your saying.. a 120v houshold circuit is usually 15 amps .. maybe 20amps... those are not as likely to kill you as the same fraction of a second exposure to say a household 240v circuit which is 30-60 amps.

and yest using your left hand is more dangerous as I mentioned a couple days ago here because the current is more likely to pass through your heart.

I agree with your SAFE way of seeing it but it doesnt mean Im wrong to say 240v is more deadly when it comes to the topic and application at hand here.
For anyone to has ever been zapped by 120v to not recognize that your typical 240v exposure is MORE dangerous is foolish in my opinion... it is and should be respected as such.
Let me put it another way, a 12 gauge slug to the abdomen is more deadly and likely to end your life than a 22 bullet to the same area... Is it smarter to expose yourself to one than the other ? hell no... Not what I'm trying to say. but your typical gun owner is aware of the difference between the 2.

 

[PeteNMA]

No I'm not and attempting to belittle practical safety advice is somewhat childish. You should treat electricity with respect, and characterising it in proper terms is the correct thing to do.

And you are still wrong, 120V will kill you just as fast as 240V. Again, it's the current that matters and where it travels. Not the voltage.