BUGS in my grain

[AzironaZack]

Hey all,
Over this weekend I picked up 17 pounds of American Ida Pils from my local beer store in Tucson ("Brew Your Own Brew"). My wife and I were making an anniversary abbey ale.

When we bought the grain we didn't notice anything living in it. We milled it there and brought it home and began the brew that same day.

After lautering (along with vorlaufing and fly sparging) I was taking a look into the lauter tun and I noticed a clearly defined ring of brown spots around the edge of the grain bed. "How odd!" I thought, and reached in a pulled out a scoop of the spots and the grain around them.

It turns out that the brown spots were bugs. Little beetles. They don't look like weevils (they're missing the little nose-horn thing) but they are certainly beetles of some sort. A friend of mine is an entomologist and she has taken a sample of the bugs into her lab to identify them. Sorry, I don't have any photos.

There weren't so many that I'm worried about my beer; it'll just have some minute buggy essence.

The reason I post is twofold:
1) Is it common for beer stores to sell grain with bugs in it?

I called the store and spoke with one of the guys whose worked there for a while and his response was like, "oh yeah; sometimes the grain has bugs." He told me that it's not uncommon. When I asked him if I could get a refund on the grain he said No; which upset me, since I feel justified in expecting grain to be bug-free when I buy it. If it becomes infested while stored at my house; that's my problem. If it's infested at the store then that's their problem.

The response from the guy on the phone was really disappointing. I don't think they're even going to take that grain off the shelf or check the rest of their stock; they're just going to sell it.

I told the fellow that I wouldn't be buying grain there in the future. Perhaps if he'd offered me a refund or seemed at all concerned that his grain has bugs I would feel differently. Sadly, he didn't show any concern. After I complained a bit more he offered to give me 10% off my next purchase. As if that makes up for it?

2) My second question is this: Do you think the brew store handled this properly? What would you expect from your local brew store after this sort of scenario?

Thanks all! The beer is bubbling away nicely in the corner of the house.

Zack

 

[ChshreCat]

Maybe the extra protein will give you better head retention.

 

[stevea1210]

I can't speak to what is the 'norm', however I have bought grain from at least 6 or 8 different stores, and have never seen any bugs in my grain. I don't typically expect bugs in my food products to be considered 'normal'.

Can bugs get in grain, sure. However it is the responsibility of the establishment to store the grain in a way to make it as low of a possibility as they can.

To answer your second question, no the store didn't handle it well. Unless they have a 10 foot sign in there saying "bugs in grain, buyer beware", they handled this terribly. I would call back and ask to speak with the owner. Let him know not only what happened with the grain, but what happened with the employee you dealt with. If the owner of the company isn't concerned with losing your business, then absolutely write them off.

 

[herbler]

Yeah, I get some critters sometimes from the 2-row at BYOB. Not that big a deal IMO... is gonna be beer eventually. Might creep out your buddies if you bring it up. Not ideal for drinkers of some eastern religions I suppose.

I actually find these guys very helpful. Talk with Gary, the owner. He's always been real friendly with and willing to help.

 

[raceskier]

Every food product has bugs in it. Every one. Get over it. Here's a related link on the allowances for insects in flour:
IngentaConnect Rapid Assessment of Insect Fragments in Flour Milled from Wheat I...

 

[ClaudiusB]

I find bugs in my grain bags
My daughter is in charge of all the brewing ingredients, milling and removing the bugs.

stevea1210 wrote:I don't typically expect bugs in my food products to be considered 'normal'.

Many foods we eat have insects or insect parts in them, that we don't see.
I spent some time in a food processing plant.

Food Defect Action Levels Handbook
ALLSPICE, GROUND - Average of 30 or more insect fragments per 10 grams
BROCCOLI, FROZEN - Average of 60 or more aphids and/or thrips and/or mites
per 100 grams

Ground Paprika - Average of more than 75 insect fragments per 25grams
Average of more than 11 rodent hairs per 25 grams

HOPS - Average of more than 2,500 aphids per 10 grams

MACARONI AND NOODLE PRODUCTS -Average of 225 insect fragments or more
per 225 grams in 6 or more subsamples

DEFECT SOURCE: Insect fragments - preharvest and/or post harvest and/or processing infestation. Rodent hair - post harvest and/or processing contamination with animal hair or excreta

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

 

[HenryHill]

When I was a kid, my mom taught me that weevils or something were already in some products and if they got old, they would hatch and start eating it. Pancake mix and such. It was probably old and/or cross-infected.

I am guessing you haven't found the mice shat in your grain yet, have you?

 

[polecreek]

My dad always told me I would end up working at safeway, picking the fly **** out of the pepper. Maybe your LHBS has an opening?

 

[BierMuncher]

It's fine. Numerous posts here about various bugs that did no harm to their beer.

Brew on. :rockin:

 

[Wables]

This problem has been known about for years. Haven't you ever heard of a protein rest?

Someone had to say it.

 

[Dloucks]

I have these tiny microscopic bugs that keep turning my sweet grain-water into alcohol. There are so many that just a couple weeks after making my grain-water there is a "sludge" of these bugs on the bottom of my plastic storage devices.

 

[StunnedMonkey]

It's a common problem. You just need to do a Fly Sparge.

 

[cellardoor]

It's a common problem. You just need to do a Fly Sparge.

 

[mmb]

Sure, it's common but I think the LHBS handled it wrong.

Personally, I've not run into "critters" in any way in my grain and I store it in airtight containers and buy in bulk. I don't think I'd be buying from a store that didn't care about an insect infestation in their product.

Perception is everything in business...

 

[Austinhomebrew]

People mistakenly think that the weevils got into the grain. They are actually coming out of the grain. They are in all of the grain you buy in the form of larvae. If the grain is old they will hatch. I would not shop at that store again. Not because of the bugs, but the fact that the grain is so old. The store can avoid the bugs by freezing all of the grain they receive for 3 days before putting it out for sale. This will kill all of the larvae and they will never hatch.

You can do this yourself to grain that you are not going to use for awhile.

Forrest

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Sure, it's common but I think the LHBS handled it wrong.

Personally, I've not run into "critters" in any way in my grain and I store it in airtight containers and buy in bulk. I don't think I'd be buying from a store that didn't care about an insect infestation in their product.

Perception is everything in business...

It doesn't matter if the container is airtight. The bugs come from the grsain. If you buy enough in bulk you will have bugs eventually.

I recommend freezing the grain for 3 days if you are not using it soon.

Forrest

 

[Bopper]

People mistakenly think that the weevils got into the grain. They are actually coming out of the grain. They are in all of the grain you buy in the form of larvae. If the grain is old they will hatch. I would not shop at that store again. Not because of the bugs, but the fact that the grain is so old. The store can avoid the bugs by freezing all of the grain they receive for 3 days before putting it out for sale. This will kill all of the larvae and they will never hatch.

You can do this yourself to grain that you are not going to use for awhile.

Forrest

Thanks Forrest. I never new this - I learn something new on here every day!

 

[StunnedMonkey]

You can do this yourself to grain that you are not going to use for awhile.

What would be your definition of "for awhile?" I store my stuff in a 66 degree basement either in plastic dog food containers (2-row) or large ziplocks (specialty grains). How long should I expect to be able to hold stuff this way without running in to such an issue?

 

[RonRock]

Beat me to it StunnedMonkey. I want to know too.

 

[AzironaZack]

Thanks everyone for the responses, both humorous and substantive.

I appreciate the fact that all food has bugs or bug parts on it. I rinse my produce well, especially well if it's organic. On the other hand, I don't expect to find food products infested either.

When I buy a bag of flour at the grocery store I expect it to be insect free. Granted, as mentioned, there is probably some amount of bug parts in the bag but as long as I am unable to notice them I'm not too worried about it. Live bugs are another matter. If I found live bugs in a fresh purchase of flour I'd take it back to the store for a refund or replacement.

I'll probably go into the store to talk to Gary (the owner) one of these days. He has been helpful in the past. I'd like to hear what his take on this is.

Unless he has something very convincing to say I'll probably cease shopping there anyway. Once burned twice shy. If his store doesn't sell quality goods then I'll spend my money at a store that does. I like supporting the local economy, but only if the local economy supports me right back with quality products at competitive prices.

 

[0202]

If you run a business, it's simple good practice to replace or
refund something if the customer is upset about the purchase
provided they are reasonable and honest.

That's a very basic customer service decision.

You want to bite $50 worth of replacement grain or lose a
customer who is inevitably going to tell other people not to
go there too?

 

[Austinhomebrew]

What would be your definition of "for awhile?" I store my stuff in a 66 degree basement either in plastic dog food containers (2-row) or large ziplocks (specialty grains). How long should I expect to be able to hold stuff this way without running in to such an issue?

It takes 4 -6 months for the larvae to hatch. Now your thinking, I haven't had the grain that long.

The manufacturer had the grain for a little while, the distributor had the grain for a little while, the homebrew store had the grain for a little while, then you had the grain for a little while.

Base grains are the fastest moving grain so it is usually not a problem unless you buy an obscure base grain like Ida pils from a small store in a small town.

Crystal malts move fast as well but grains like peated or aromatic, grain that you only use 1/4 pound per batch, will more likely hatch because they are slow movers.

Forrest

 

[david_42]

And in any of the roasted malts, the bugs are just more burnt, crunchy bits.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Interesting, and a little disturbing to think that the bugs/eggs/larvae survived the malting / kilning processes.

Meh.

Also, makes you wonder. If growing and process controls were better "controlled" to an extent that the bugs were never present, what would that change about the beer. Not looking for an answer here just contemplating. I mean there has got to be something more than "protein" that the bugs contribute and that is utilized along teh way.

Hmmmmm.

 

[mmb]

. I mean there has got to be something more than "protein" that the bugs contribute and that is utilized along teh way.

Hmmmmm.

*NEW* and Fortified with Complex Invertebrates.

 

[jds]

Forrest: Thanks for the tip re freezing. Does AHS practice this?

One of my LHBS' refuses to carry flaked corn, because they say whenever they bring in flaked corn, they have insect problems. Now, given the process to flake corn, I doubt weevils or other bugs could survive. However, I did appreciate them letting me know. Flaked corn is cheaper at the health-food store anyhow.

 

[phidelt844]

I find bugs in my grain bags
My daughter is in charge of all the brewing ingredients, milling and removing the bugs.


Many foods we eat have insects or insect parts in them, that we don't see.
I spent some time in a food processing plant.

Food Defect Action Levels Handbook
ALLSPICE, GROUND - Average of 30 or more insect fragments per 10 grams
BROCCOLI, FROZEN - Average of 60 or more aphids and/or thrips and/or mites
per 100 grams

Ground Paprika - Average of more than 75 insect fragments per 25grams
Average of more than 11 rodent hairs per 25 grams

HOPS - Average of more than 2,500 aphids per 10 grams

MACARONI AND NOODLE PRODUCTS -Average of 225 insect fragments or more
per 225 grams in 6 or more subsamples

DEFECT SOURCE: Insect fragments - preharvest and/or post harvest and/or processing infestation. Rodent hair - post harvest and/or processing contamination with animal hair or excreta

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

Who cares about insects in grains!? I want to know why I have aphids, thrips, and mites in my frozen broccoli! And I want to know what aphids and thrips are!

I think I'll change my diet to consist of entirely frozen pizzas. I see no mention of "processing contamination with animal hair or excreta" in Tombstone.

 

[karbinator]

My last batch used marris otter, and I
found a SNAIL in it !! Be that it was dead, and
rather small and dried, I was amazed that thing
somehow made it in there around production time.
I plucked it out, and carried on.
What can ya do?

 

[steelerguy]

I have never noticed bugs in my grain, i also don't go digging through it looking for them because I know I would find them if I did.

It seems like most bugs would be killed during steeping, they would just drown. Then more would die during kilning, although if it were a light grain then maybe not. I would guess most bugs get into the grain after the malting process, but who knows.

I think if you felt the grain was good enough to use then you should also have not expected a full refund. Of course you had already started the mashing process, but if it was so gross that you wanted a refund it should have been gross enough to throw out. So say they gave you 50% off your next bug infested grain purchase, would this have made you happy? How about even 17 free pounds of bug laden grain? Still has bugs in it.

I wouldn't be happy with a bunch of bugs in my grain either, mostly because I would feel it was stored improperly at the store. If I felt it was good enough to make beer out of though, I wouldn't expect much in the way of a refund. Just my take.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

My last batch used marris otter, and I
found a SNAIL in it !! Be that it was dead, and
rather small and dried, I was amazed that thing
somehow made it in there around production time.
I plucked it out, and carried on.
What can ya do?

Mash at 152*F for 60 minutes and call it an English Snale Ale.

 

[cytokine]

Interesting, and a little disturbing to think that the bugs/eggs/larvae survived the malting / kilning processes.

Meh.

Also, makes you wonder. If growing and process controls were better "controlled" to an extent that the bugs were never present, what would that change about the beer. Not looking for an answer here just contemplating. I mean there has got to be something more than "protein" that the bugs contribute and that is utilized along teh way.

Hmmmmm.

Discussing the great outdoors with a friend who had never been outside the city before, I casually mentioned that I had drunk mountain stream water.

He was appalled. "I would never do that...fish f*** in there!"

I know you are not looking for an "answer" and I don't have one. However, my response to your wondering is that everything is interconnected.

In modern society we are so accustomed to thinking of the grocery store as the source of food. Kids think chickens come in plastic. They're shocked to find out that hamburger is actually made of cow. Vegetables come out of the ground. The horror!

Therefore we should not be surprised to find bugs in our grain and yeast in our beer.

It's the circle of life.

Dancing Banana.

 

[Amiaji]

People mistakenly think that the weevils got into the grain. They are actually coming out of the grain. They are in all of the grain you buy in the form of larvae. If the grain is old they will hatch. I would not shop at that store again. Not because of the bugs, but the fact that the grain is so old. The store can avoid the bugs by freezing all of the grain they receive for 3 days before putting it out for sale. This will kill all of the larvae and they will never hatch.

You can do this yourself to grain that you are not going to use for awhile.

Forrest

It doesn't matter if the container is airtight. The bugs come from the grsain. If you buy enough in bulk you will have bugs eventually.

I recommend freezing the grain for 3 days if you are not using it soon.

Forrest

+1
My LHBS always puts new shipments of grain in his freezer for 3 days before selling it. Even still except for full bags of grain I put any grain I buy into the freezer when I get it home. Never seen any bugs in my grain yet.

The employee should have handled it better though. I would talk to the owner about it.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Forrest: Thanks for the tip re freezing. Does AHS practice this?

One of my LHBS' refuses to carry flaked corn, because they say whenever they bring in flaked corn, they have insect problems. Now, given the process to flake corn, I doubt weevils or other bugs could survive. However, I did appreciate them letting me know. Flaked corn is cheaper at the health-food store anyhow.

Let your LHBS know that in order for the bugs not to appear they need to freeze the grain for a minimum of 3 days so the larvae won't hatch. They should do that to all grain that moves slow. The bugs in the grain are not due to improper storage. The bugs didn't get in the grain, they are trying to get out.

Flaked grains always seem to hatch sooner than other grains. I am not sure why other than they are slow movers and by the time the stores receive the grain they are very close to hatching.

You want to use pre-gelatinized flakes when you are brewing. The health food store flaked corn is not pre-gelatinized.

Forrest

P.S. There are an average of 4 rat hairs to every hotdog.

 

[jds]

You want to use pre-gelatinized flakes when you are brewing. The health food store flaked corn is not pre-gelatinized.

Thanks for the tip. I cereal mash grains from the health-food stores.

 

[missing link]

Off topic slightly but interesting. The wife and I were out to dinner and she had a seafood pasta of some kind. One of the pieces of seafood was a baby crab. It was about the size of a quarter and had all of it's leg's etc on it. Didn't really freak us out to bad but dinner was free!!!

Linc

 

[conpewter]

Hmm I think I'll go home and set my grain outside or in a freezer for 3 days. Does roasted grain also hatch eventually?

 

[Sonnyjim]

I had 13.5lbs of 2 Row Canadian Malted Barley from a farm a few hours from here and while I was cracking them today I noticed a few dried up ladybugs in there. I found 2 of them, took them out but I am sure there was 1 or 2 more in there. I'm sure it won't affect the beer that much other than some more protien. I'm thinking about renaming this batch though to Ladybug Maple Ale

 

[cytokine]

It's a common problem. You just need to do a Fly Sparge.

This bears repeating.

 

[undallas]

I thought freezing produce moisture when thaw/defrost which would cause the grain to go rancid faster.

 

[baru]

Hey all,
Over this weekend I picked up 17 pounds of American Ida Pils from my local beer store in Tucson ("Brew Your Own Brew"). My wife and I were making an anniversary abbey ale.

When we bought the grain we didn't notice anything living in it. We milled it there and brought it home and began the brew that same day.

After lautering (along with vorlaufing and fly sparging) I was taking a look into the lauter tun and I noticed a clearly defined ring of brown spots around the edge of the grain bed. "How odd!" I thought, and reached in a pulled out a scoop of the spots and the grain around them.

It turns out that the brown spots were bugs. Little beetles. They don't look like weevils (they're missing the little nose-horn thing) but they are certainly beetles of some sort. A friend of mine is an entomologist and she has taken a sample of the bugs into her lab to identify them. Sorry, I don't have any photos.

There weren't so many that I'm worried about my beer; it'll just have some minute buggy essence.

The reason I post is twofold:
1) Is it common for beer stores to sell grain with bugs in it?

I called the store and spoke with one of the guys whose worked there for a while and his response was like, "oh yeah; sometimes the grain has bugs." He told me that it's not uncommon. When I asked him if I could get a refund on the grain he said No; which upset me, since I feel justified in expecting grain to be bug-free when I buy it. If it becomes infested while stored at my house; that's my problem. If it's infested at the store then that's their problem.

The response from the guy on the phone was really disappointing. I don't think they're even going to take that grain off the shelf or check the rest of their stock; they're just going to sell it.

I told the fellow that I wouldn't be buying grain there in the future. Perhaps if he'd offered me a refund or seemed at all concerned that his grain has bugs I would feel differently. Sadly, he didn't show any concern. After I complained a bit more he offered to give me 10% off my next purchase. As if that makes up for it?

2) My second question is this: Do you think the brew store handled this properly? What would you expect from your local brew store after this sort of scenario?

Thanks all! The beer is bubbling away nicely in the corner of the house.

Zack

Well, on the bright side they probably didn't eat much.
On the down side you probably shouldn't call it beer. The german purity law of 1516 says beer contains only barley, hops, and water
baru