BrunDog 50A eRig - no HLT for me!

[Buckeye_Hydro]

The performance of RO membranes is affected in a big way by water pressure (and water temperature). The pressure we look at is called the Net Driving Pressure. NDP is primarily the pressure on the feedwater side of the membrane, minus any back pressure.

So if you have 60 psi feeding the RO, and an empty pressure tank, 60-0 = 60 psi NDP.
But by the time the pressure tank is full, you'll have about 40 psi of back pressure, so the NDP = 60-40=20 psi. Membranes just don't work all that well with only 20 psi NDP.

Russ

 

[BrunDog]

Thanks Russ. I removed the brass a long time ago and replaced with plastic. I have no brass in the whole brewery and I am about to eliminate my copper chillers. The brass had discolored quickly - is this a result of the demineralized water?

I currently use my under-sink RO and fill the tanks from that. It does pressurize a tank there. It takes me about 4-5 fill sessions to get the 10 gallons for a brew. If I need more than that, I just add water separately.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[cod3ck]

I have no brass in the whole brewery and I am about to eliminate my copper chillers.

I'm afraid to ask this since I love my Hydra IC, but what's the replacement plan? [emoji23]

 

[BrunDog]

I'm afraid to ask this since I love my Hydra IC, but what's the replacement plan? [emoji23]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=597363

 

[NdO]

Along with BruControl changes, I finally got around to adding liquid level sensing to my Boil Kettle. Several posts up, I showed a way to add liquid level sensing to my Mash Tun using an air pressure sensor. I would prefer a direct contact sensor but they are wicked expensive for the task. So using regular air pressure sensors makes sense at ~$15 each. This has been done before so I take no credit, but I did implement the technique which I hadn't seen before.

I think it is a good approach because it almost eliminates air in tube above the sensor. This is important because as the temperature of the air changes, its volume changes too, drawing in liquid volume as it cools. This volume change problem is pronounced when using a long tube into the kettle, and is typically mitigated using the "air bubbler" design - but that is hardware I would rather not need.

This time I opted a slightly different configuration. Rather than the liquid column underneath I added a port to the side of the kettle. Here is a look at the layouts for comparison:
View attachment 396018

The design on the left (my mash tun) has the benefit of measuring liquid from zero, which also makes zero calibration easy - all I have to do is fill the tube until it just overflows into the tun bottom. But, this can collect stray grains and requires flushing after, therfore needs a valve to dump the flush. On the right (now my boil kettle), there is no flushing needed after, but I cannot measure from zero which makes calibrating a little more difficult. Of course measuring from the bottom is not critical because we are doing volumes well over 5 gallons.

Here is a look at the install. I would have prefered to solder on a half coupling, but it would have required me taking the BK off the stand which would have been a PITA because of the motorized valve mounted to the bottom. So I put together a simple weldless design.

Here are the fittings. This is a SS 1/8" NPT x 0.170" barbed elbow, some washers, jam nut, and o-ring. One of the washers is trimmed to avoid pinching the tube. The tubing is tygon, which is soft, pliable, and can stand the heat.
View attachment 396019

I drilled a hole low in the kettle:
View attachment 396020

Taped the fitting, put through, and added the O-ring:
View attachment 396023

Added the jam nut:
View attachment 396025

Here is what it looks like outside:
View attachment 396021

Used a little box for the sensor:
View attachment 396022

And mounted underneath (what can I say - I like zip ties):
View attachment 396024

After a brief zero calibration and same multiplier as the mash sensor, all looks good in BC (level in the middle) after adding 5 gallons using a measured pitcher:
View attachment 396027

Now, one problem with this layout is there is tubing that has air in it. It will be sensitive to temperature changes, and admittedly as I sit here writing this, I am seeing some creep as a result. I will report back after more use!

Would you mind explaining a little bit more the connections? And how it works? I didn't understand what is inside the hose...

Thanks!

 

[BrunDog]

Sure. Electrically, there are three connections. Ground on the sensor is tied to system ground, which the micro-controller is also tied to. +5V on the sensor is tied to +5V output of the controller (or 5V power supply). The output of the sensor is tied to an analog input of the controller. The capacitors were added to smooth (filter) any ambient electrical noise.

In terms of the hose, it connects the bottom of the kettle to the sensor pressure measuring port. This pressure is compared to ambient pressure to get the pressure of just the "weight" of the liquid. The hydro-static pressure of liquid is known given its density (specific gravity) and the height of the liquid column. So since we know the density of water or wort, through a calculation we can determine the height of the liquid column from the pressure. More math determines the volume of the liquid from the height, because the diameter of the kettle is known (and fixed).

So inside the hose (it's really a small tube) is really just air. A small amount of the kettle liquid might begin to enter the tube but it has no place to go as the air gets pressurized against the "dead end" of the sensor. Make sense?

 

[NdO]

Sure. Electrically, there are three connections. Ground on the sensor is tied to system ground, which the micro-controller is also tied to. +5V on the sensor is tied to +5V output of the controller (or 5V power supply). The output of the sensor is tied to an analog input of the controller. The capacitors were added to smooth (filter) any ambient electrical noise.

In terms of the hose, it connects the bottom of the kettle to the sensor pressure measuring port. This pressure is compared to ambient pressure to get the pressure of just the "weight" of the liquid. The hydro-static pressure of liquid is known given its density (specific gravity) and the height of the liquid column. So since we know the density of water or wort, through a calculation we can determine the height of the liquid column from the pressure. More math determines the volume of the liquid from the height, because the diameter of the kettle is known (and fixed).

So inside the hose (it's really a small tube) is really just air. A small amount of the kettle liquid might begin to enter the tube but it has no place to go as the air gets pressurized against the "dead end" of the sensor. Make sense?

I can understand your math calculations, the main doubt is how the pressure measuring port looks like and how it's attached to the tube, etc. I cant really see it in your picture.

Besides that, i thought that liquid was going to fill the tube. For the liquid doesn't get inside it, you must fill the kettle fast enough so the level of the liquid exceed the top of the tubing role. What is the diameter of the tube? What is the flowrate that you use when sparging?

The main problem in find in my new project is a reliable way to mensure level in all kettles, one that can be used with hard tubing, CIP, boiling worth, etc, and you gave me some inspiration!

Thanks!

 

[BrunDog]

The sensor has a barb fitting on it, and the tube slides over it.

The liquid won't move much into the tube, but the 90 degree elbow fitting ensures the tube turns vertical for its initial section. This keeps liquid drops from going down to the sensor, which it cannot tolerate. Like an air gap.

You don't need to fill the kettle at any particular speed. Liquid has no place to go given the vertical takeoff and the closed end of the tube at the sensor. I don't recall the tubing ID but it's something like 1/8".

Sparge rate has no bearing on this sensor system, but to answer your question, I sparge at ~1 qt/min.

 

[NdO]

90 degree elbow fitting ensures the tube turns vertical for its initial section.

This is the secret! Thank you so much. I will try do it myself!

If it's not asking you so much, would you mind sharing a more detailed math calculations you do for your rig? Anyways, I can search it myself but would be a nice point of start for me!

Thanks!

 

[carpenike]

Super old post, sorry to bubble it up again. I read through some pages but couldn't find any details on your air pressure sensor setup.

I currently run eHERMS with BCS in bottom drain Keggles but I didn't bother with a sight glass. I'd like to skip that altogether but would like to introduce some type of volume measurements and your setup looks great... As I already have a T on the bottom of each of my keggles I'm invisioning swapping those out with a cross and putting a pressure sensor on the top part.

Do you have a parts list for the sensor components on your setup? Would the barometric pressure sensors on adafruit work?

Thanks and awesome setup!

Along with BruControl changes, I finally got around to adding liquid level sensing to my Boil Kettle. Several posts up, I showed a way to add liquid level sensing to my Mash Tun using an air pressure sensor. I would prefer a direct contact sensor but they are wicked expensive for the task. So using regular air pressure sensors makes sense at ~$15 each. This has been done before so I take no credit, but I did implement the technique which I hadn't seen before.

I think it is a good approach because it almost eliminates air in tube above the sensor. This is important because as the temperature of the air changes, its volume changes too, drawing in liquid volume as it cools. This volume change problem is pronounced when using a long tube into the kettle, and is typically mitigated using the "air bubbler" design - but that is hardware I would rather not need.

This time I opted a slightly different configuration. Rather than the liquid column underneath I added a port to the side of the kettle. Here is a look at the layouts for comparison:
View attachment 396018

The design on the left (my mash tun) has the benefit of measuring liquid from zero, which also makes zero calibration easy - all I have to do is fill the tube until it just overflows into the tun bottom. But, this can collect stray grains and requires flushing after, therfore needs a valve to dump the flush. On the right (now my boil kettle), there is no flushing needed after, but I cannot measure from zero which makes calibrating a little more difficult. Of course measuring from the bottom is not critical because we are doing volumes well over 5 gallons.

Here is a look at the install. I would have prefered to solder on a half coupling, but it would have required me taking the BK off the stand which would have been a PITA because of the motorized valve mounted to the bottom. So I put together a simple weldless design.

Here are the fittings. This is a SS 1/8" NPT x 0.170" barbed elbow, some washers, jam nut, and o-ring. One of the washers is trimmed to avoid pinching the tube. The tubing is tygon, which is soft, pliable, and can stand the heat.
View attachment 396019

I drilled a hole low in the kettle:
View attachment 396020

Taped the fitting, put through, and added the O-ring:
View attachment 396023

Added the jam nut:
View attachment 396025

Here is what it looks like outside:
View attachment 396021

Used a little box for the sensor:
View attachment 396022

And mounted underneath (what can I say - I like zip ties):
View attachment 396024

After a brief zero calibration and same multiplier as the mash sensor, all looks good in BC (level in the middle) after adding 5 gallons using a measured pitcher:
View attachment 396027

Now, one problem with this layout is there is tubing that has air in it. It will be sensitive to temperature changes, and admittedly as I sit here writing this, I am seeing some creep as a result. I will report back after more use!

 

[BrunDog]

This is the secret! Thank you so much. I will try do it myself!

If it's not asking you so much, would you mind sharing a more detailed math calculations you do for your rig? Anyways, I can search it myself but would be a nice point of start for me!

Thanks!

Sorry... I overlooked this request. Here is a calculator I created for BruControl users. You should be able to get what you want from that: http://brucontrol.com/build/resources/

The short of it is that the vessel volume in quarts is: pi*(Dv/2)^2*Ha*0.017316, where Dv is the vessel internal diameter in inches and Ha is the height of the water in inches.

Let me know if you need more!

 

[BrunDog]

Super old post, sorry to bubble it up again. I read through some pages but couldn't find any details on your air pressure sensor setup.

I currently run eHERMS with BCS in bottom drain Keggles but I didn't bother with a sight glass. I'd like to skip that altogether but would like to introduce some type of volume measurements and your setup looks great... As I already have a T on the bottom of each of my keggles I'm invisioning swapping those out with a cross and putting a pressure sensor on the top part.

Do you have a parts list for the sensor components on your setup? Would the barometric pressure sensors on adafruit work?

Thanks and awesome setup!

Happy to help! One point of concern regarding changing the T to a cross and connecting the sensor airgap tube there... when liquid flows through the port, the pressure will drop (depending on the flow rate and relative restrictions) and causing invalid readings. The readings will normalize and be correct when the flow stops, so if you are using a pump you can turn it off and read the value then. But otherwise I recommend a unique bottom port - this is why I added discreet holes in my vessels.

Another caveat is that BCS cannot read analog values... my previous setup used an Arduino to read the sensor and report ON or OFF binary signals to the BCS. This was one of the reasons I created BruControl (shameless, shameless plug)!

The sensor I use is: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/panasonic-electronic-components/ADP51B61/P17123-ND/3244557. This is a 6 kPa sensor, so will work for vessels that hold less than ~24 inches of liquid. Any more than that will over pressure the sensor. Also, with these low pressures (this is < 0.9 psi), the barb/tube fittings are acceptable. Much more than that, and positively clamped tubes may be needed. The last thing you want is a sprung leak of boiling wort!

 

[carpenike]

Excellent! Thanks!

Yeah the initial thought was to use a tube and that pressure concern was the same in that case. It'd be helpful for ensuring volume at a particular time but will not be accurate when recirculating. Really do like your controller software and the use of a PC to run it all. Assuming a full panel built for a BCS controller, do you have rough cost estimates to do a drop in replacement without the cost of a PC included?

Happy to help! One point of concern regarding changing the T to a cross and connecting the sensor airgap tube there... when liquid flows through the port, the pressure will drop (depending on the flow rate and relative restrictions) and causing invalid readings. The readings will normalize and be correct when the flow stops, so if you are using a pump you can turn it off and read the value then. But otherwise I recommend a unique bottom port - this is why I added discreet holes in my vessels.

Another caveat is that BCS cannot read analog values... my previous setup used an Arduino to read the sensor and report ON or OFF binary signals to the BCS. This was one of the reasons I created BruControl (shameless, shameless plug)!

The sensor I use is: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/panasonic-electronic-components/ADP51B61/P17123-ND/3244557. This is a 6 kPa sensor, so will work for vessels that hold less than ~24 inches of liquid. Any more than that will over pressure the sensor. Also, with these low pressures (this is < 0.9 psi), the barb/tube fittings are acceptable. Much more than that, and positively clamped tubes may be needed. The last thing you want is a sprung leak of boiling wort!

 

[BrunDog]

Excellent! Thanks!

Yeah the initial thought was to use a tube and that pressure concern was the same in that case. It'd be helpful for ensuring volume at a particular time but will not be accurate when recirculating. Really do like your controller software and the use of a PC to run it all. Assuming a full panel built for a BCS controller, do you have rough cost estimates to do a drop in replacement without the cost of a PC included?

Well, the costs are not really significant. Here is my best estimate, removing the BCS and its 6V power supply, in rough $, not including optional mount items, like a screw shield, etc.

BC Basic: 99
Arduino MEGA: 15
12V power supply: 22
Thermistor interface board: 39
Total: 175

If you want to connect BC and the controller via network, then the cost increases about $80 for the Advanced version and for an Ethernet shield.

 

[carpenike]

Thanks. And the advanced software is able to communicate with the Arudino Mega over it's associated Ethernet board rather than a local device (USB)?

So in theory I could use a VM to run the software and RDP / use the web server (future)?

Well, the costs are not really significant. Here is my best estimate, removing the BCS and its 6V power supply, in rough $, not including optional mount items, like a screw shield, etc.

BC Basic: 99
Arduino MEGA: 15
12V power supply: 22
Thermistor interface board: 39
Total: 175

If you want to connect BC and the controller via network, then the cost increases about $80 for the Advanced version and for an Ethernet shield.

 

[BrunDog]

Thanks. And the advanced software is able to communicate with the Arudino Mega over it's associated Ethernet board rather than a local device (USB)?

So in theory I could use a VM to run the software and RDP / use the web server (future)?

Correct and correct. I currently use RDP very successfully over WiFI with a 1920 x 1080 screen. We are indeed working on the web interface.

 

[Thefatdoghead]

Wicked setup Brundog. Can you give an update on your system.
I'm currently building a 3v herms full electric 30 gallon system
I have bought a bcs and will have 4 x 5500w elements.
Just thought if I only had 2 it would take forever to heat 100 litres to a boil.

Look forward to seeing how your setup has evolved.

Gav

 

[BrunDog]

Thanks. The control system change and addition of the BK level sensor were the last changes. I have been fine tuning the script a bit to work out some little bugs associated with automation. But it is running well! The next changes will be to incorporate some LODO: changed mash tun and a new chiller.

I agree 10kW is appropriate for 30 gallons. Good luck with your build!

 

[user 125772]

Pretty cool Brundog, thoroughly enjoyed the thread & videos.
A little disappointed your dog didn't make a cameo appearance.
Anyway, thanks for sharing.

 

[BrunDog]

Pretty cool Brundog, thoroughly enjoyed the thread & videos.
A little disappointed your dog didn't make a cameo appearance.
Anyway, thanks for sharing.

Thank you... unfortunately he is no longer with us. He was a great dog!

 

[BrunDog]

Quick update... added a second proportional valve on the outlet of the second pump. This will help regulate MLT draining rate during sparge (rather than cycling the on/off valve feeding the BK) and will automate the fermenter filling to a defined temp during transfer. Here goes a brew with it!
View attachment IMG_1615.jpg

 

[jcav]

What a great idea! Very cool indeed!

John

 

[Thefatdoghead]

Hi Brundog,

Would you mind posting a link of your Propertioal valves please?
Also, would it be possible to run your controller without removing the BCS?

So just switch between both yours and BÇS?
Already have the 12v power supply and really like the idea of the proportional valves.
Thanks

 

[BrunDog]

My valves at KLD. I buy them straight from China.

The proportional valve is the KLD20T though there is no info online as these are custom made. Here is the valve type: http://www.electric-valve.com/20.html

PM me if you want one. I am putting a few in stock for BruControl users who want one without jumping through lots of hoops/headaches, but I am happy to offer to anyone interested.

 

[BrunDog]

Minor but sweet upgrade in my opinion... Snagged this gorgeous hp 21” touch monitor off eBay for a steal (2105tm). The monitor is mounted using a $20 monitor arm off one of the posts of my brewery cart.

I initially used a RPi as a front end to Remote Desktop into my BruControl server machine. It works fine but I found the RPi doesn’t support a touchscreen keyboard well. So I grabbed a $99 mini pc and I have to say... it works really well. It would run BruControl with plenty of headroom. I will just use it as an RDP client but suggest anyone can use it as the host for BC. It’s got the horsepower to run video apps well too, for when entertainment during brewing is in order, like watching my favorite YouTube channels!

View attachment IMG_1754.jpg
View attachment IMG_1753.jpg
View attachment IMG_1755.jpg

 

[BrunDog]

Here is the mini-pc. I haven’t mounted it yet.

View attachment IMG_1756.jpg

 

[BrunDog]

Minor change... originally I planned to mount a 10” touchscreen LCD panel in the pedestal enclosure. But since bigger is better, I went with the large touchscreen as shown above. So the pedestal isn’t needed. I moved these dedicated controls (key switch, E-stop, power LED, element on LEDs, and the alarm/LED) mounted into a smaller plastic enclosure, and mounted to the top span.
View attachment IMG_1775.jpg

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

How did you mount that box? I can't see how it's staying on that shelf.

 

[BrunDog]

Screws!

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Did you have to drill through the box? I've always avoided that if I can to be extra careful (some people use a word that starts with "a"...) about letting water into my electrical boxes.

I may have said before (or possibly given the impression ) that I am detail obsessed. One of the biggest challenges for me when designing an epic brewing stand is how to mount the various components. It's amazing how hard it can be to mount a weatherproof electrical box...those little tabs they come with aren't worth dealing with.