Brun Water Spreadsheet Question

[springinloose1]

Typically I use RO water and adjust to suit; until I visited a brewery not even a mile from home and befriended the guys. We got to talking about water chemistry and what they do and the guys all said they add nothing and that our Crown Point, Indiana Lake Michigan water is perfect for brewing as is. They fill the tanks the day before brewing to evaporate (I believe they said) chloramine. So I dialed up my water supplier (Indiana American) and got all the mineral specs. But after entering the info into the "Water Report Input" page, I've got an error that the water report is unbalanced; so I'd like to know if you guys can see if something is awry with my numbers, or if I should ignore the error.

Here are my water specs:
Calcium - 35
Magnesium - 12
Sodium - 10
Bicarbonate - 169 (I'm guessing this is the issue)
Carbonate - .1
Sulfate - 25
Chloride - 20

Thank you!
Cheers!

 

[mabrungard]

Crown Point water is the same as Chicago water. While its a very good starting point, its far from perfect for brewing all styles. Based on the brewer's admission, its no wonder why they only medal in certain categories at the Indiana Brewers Cup. Sad that they haven't figured this out.

It appears the error in your numbers is that the bicarb value is too high. Its more typically in the 120 to 125 ppm range. I'm guessing that will produce a better balance.

 

[springinloose1]

Hi Martin, thanks for responding. Yeah I was pretty surprised to hear them say they add nothing. Last night I went to another brewery in Griffith, asked the same questions, and got like answers; nothing is added.

I pasted the numbers off Indiana Americans web site for reference but since total hardness is represented as CaCO3, and spreadsheet says to convert to ppm by multiplying by 1.22, I took an average (132+146/2=139) and multiplied by 1.22 to get 169ppm. Based on your response, I'm guessing I shouldn't multiply and run with my average bicarbonate and be done with it?

pH 7.2 – 8.3
Total Hardness (as CaCO3)
132 – 146 mg/L Naturally occurring
Total Hardness (as CaCO3)
8 – 9 grains per gallon
Naturally occurring

Cheers,
Adam

 

[ajdelange]

It looks as if you are trying to convert hardness as CaCO3 to bicarbonate. Hardness has nothing to do with bicarbonate. You need the alkalinity number from the water report to get a bicarbonate value.

You certainly are not the first to make this mistake as in the US we still specify hardness AND alkalinity in the same units. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact there are definite advantaged to doing so. The proper units to use are milliequivalents per liter. The problem arises because we don't use mEq/L but rather ppm as CaCO3. Fifty ppm as CaCO3 represent 1 mEq/L. There are reasons for using ppm as CaCO3 (if you are a hydrogeologist) but for the rest of us it just leads to confusion. Whenever you see 'ppm as CaCO3', be it referring to total hardness, calcium hardness, magnesium hardness or alkalinity, just divide by 50 (multiply by 2 and shift the decimal point) to give you the mEq/L of the substance in question.

The brewing community would do itself a great favor if it would switch over to mEq (or mVal as they are sometimes called) but tradition dies hard.

 

[springinloose1]

What happens if my water report doesn't list alkalinity specifically? I'd like to set the spreadsheet with my home tap water and adjust from there instead of buying 20 gallons of RO each brew day. Having water that's a good start is definitely nice and something I was unaware of, but I've been using RO this whole time because I like to get the water profile as close as possible to the style.

 

[cire]

What happens if my water report doesn't list alkalinity specifically? I'd like to set the spreadsheet with my home tap water and adjust from there instead of buying 20 gallons of RO each brew day. Having water that's a good start is definitely nice and something I was unaware of, but I've been using RO this whole time because I like to get the water profile as close as possible to the style.

Then you might measure it. In fact it is advisable to measure alkalinity every time you brew and if after your treatment any alkalinity should remain, then you should confirm that by measurement. It's simple to do, it's cheap to do and the kit at the link below will do this. It will be available from many other outlets.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001EJ3DOG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Though it is not quite as nice as the kit linked in the post directly above, I've used this inexpensive test kit to measure alkalinity: https://www.amazon.com/API-TEST-Freshwater-Aquarium-Water/dp/B003SNCHMA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1519295480&sr=8-1&keywords=api+gh/kh+test+kit

'KH' is a 'German' unit of measure for waters alkalinity (in a fashion similar to 'Grains' being a US unit of measure of waters hardness). The greater the alkalinity, the easier it is to distinctly see the titration endpoint with this kit. It gets rather tough to discern the endpoint when alkalinity is low. For the case of low alkalinity, increasing sample size by 5x or 10x, and then subsequently dividing your 'KH drops' answer by 5 or 10 is helpful.

ppm Alkalinity (as CaCO3) = 17.848 x KH

And for most practical purposes (representing typically found water pH's):

ppm Bicarbonate = ppm Alkalinity / 0.82
(or alternately)
ppm Alkalinity = ppm Bicarbonate x 0.82

 

[ajdelange]

What happens if my water report doesn't list alkalinity specifically?

The best thing to do, of course, is measure it but you can also estimate it from the reported ions as described in https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/why-does-water-harness-lower-the-mash-ph.645340/ (starting at around No. 18).

 

[ajdelange]

'KH' is a 'German' unit of measure for waters alkalinity (in a fashion similar to 'Grains' being a US unit of measure of waters hardness).

The units of KH (karbonat hartung), which isn't a hartung (hardness ) at all but the alkalinity (and I criticise the US system) are ° dH (german hardness) which are based on equivalent CaO (as opposed to equivalent CaCO3 in the US system). Equally, or perhaps even more confusing.

The greater the alkalinity, the easier it is to distinctly see the titration endpoint with this kit.

I wouldn't see it at all as I am color blind so don't take this comment too seriously. How does that work? It takes 0.1 mEq acid to neutralize that last 0.1 mEq of alkalinity whether you started from 4 mEq or 1 mEq.

And for most practical purposes (representing typically found water pH's):

One needs to be a bit more careful these days as more and more utilities seem to be pushing product pH up to the point where the approximation is being stressed. At least I am noticing more posted water reports where pH is high.

ppm Bicarbonate = ppm Alkalinity / 0.82
(or alternately)
ppm Alkalinity = ppm Bicarbonate x 0.82

I tell people to divide alkalinity as ppm by 50. This is very easy to do as one simply doubles the alkalinity and shifts the decimal point 2 places left and it gives them alkalinity in mEq/L which is true alkalinity or alkalinity expressed as really should think about it in order to better understand mash tun chemistry. Keep in mind that if we add 1 mmol of Ca(OH)2 to 1L distilled water that water's alkalinity is 2 mEq/L and it contains NO bicarbonate. If they want to use one of the spreadsheets that insists on using bicarbonate as a proxy for alkalinity then they can then multiply mEq/L by the molecular weight of the bicarbonate ion which is 61. Personally I think the two whole numbers are no more difficult to remember than their ratio.

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that one of the big advantages of knowing alkalinity in mEq/L is that 90% of that number, multiplied by the number of liters of mash (or sparge) water is a good estimate of the amount of acid needed to treat that water for mashing or sparging.

 

[springinloose1]

I wish I would’ve left well enough alone and trusted the guy who resides in the same state as me with the same water that the bicarbonate is in the neighborhood of 120-125 and continued on my way with the Munich Helles recipe I’m working on, but O.C.D is real folks.

Using the numbers from my water report against the equations & info A.J provided:

Ca – 35

Mg – 12

Na – 12

So4 – 24.5

Cl – 20.2

(Cl – 20.2/35.45 = .56981) + (So4 – 24.5/48 = .72916) = 1.29897
(Ca – 35/20 = 1.75) + (Mg – 12/12.15 = .98765) + (Na – 10/23 = .43478) = 3.17243
3.17243 – 1.29897 = 1.87346

Bicarbonate – 1.87346 (61) = 114.28
Taking into consideration a few missing ions: Bicarbonate ≠ 120

But would my alkalinity be – 1.87346 x 50 = 93 mEq/L?

Where I’m now confused is do you even need the alkalinity number to figure out bicarbonate levels? Guys listen, truth be told, the only chemistry I’ve had is what I’m trying to wrap my head around to brew better beer and there’s a really good chance I’m in left field in a ballpark located in outer space so no harm no foul if you have better things to do than clear my stuff up… but to figure bicarbonate, take the difference of the sums of the measured number off the water report, divide by the molecular/atomic weights of the ions and multiply by 61.

All this, in the name of good beer!
So Mote It Be!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

But would my alkalinity be – 1.87346 x 50 = 93 mEq/L?

Yes, but the results units are ppm

Where I’m now confused is do you even need the alkalinity number to figure out bicarbonate levels?

Some software asks for the input of bicarbonate, and some software asks for the input of alkalinity.

 

[ajdelange]

Bicarbonate – 1.87346 (61) = 114.28
Taking into consideration a few missing ions: Bicarbonate ≠ 120

Keep in mind that this is only an approximation as the difference you calculated is in error by the sum of the errors in measuring each of the individual ions plus the amount of any ion that is present but not measured. This can easily be as much as 0.3 mEq/L (15 ppm as CaCO3). Also you are assuming that all the imbalance is due to bicarbonate. If the pH is low (below say 8) then this is a good approximation. As pH gets above 9 it starts to break down though even at pH 10 the hydroxyl alkalinity is only 5 ppm.

But would my alkalinity be – 1.87346 x 50 = 93 mEq/L?

No. It is 1.87 mEq/L which is 93 ppm as CaCO3.

Where I’m now confused is do you even need the alkalinity number to figure out bicarbonate levels?

When you take the difference between the cation and anion charges you have the alkalinity in mEq/L. You don't have to multiply by 50 to get it into ppm as CaCO3 to get the bicarbonate. You can just assume that all the alkalinity is attributable to bicarbonate and multiply the imbalance in mEq/L by 61 (the equivalent weight of bicarbonate) subject to possible error as described above.

… but to figure bicarbonate...

follow the instructions at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/why-does-water-harness-lower-the-mash-ph.645340/[/QUOTE]

 

[springinloose1]

The darkness has seen a little light flicker. It's an accomplishing feeling getting a number you can't just pull off a report and I want to say thank you for your time and knowledge.

The ultimate goal was to figure out what the bicarbonate level was of my tap water to move forward in knowing what I'll need to adjust for my recipe but I wanted to wait and see if my approximation for bicarbonate was going to pass, and now that the math somewhat checks out against what Martin said bicarbonate levels are in my area, I have one more inquiry:

Keep in mind that this is only an approximation as the difference you calculated is in error by the sum of the errors in measuring each of the individual ions plus the amount of any ion that is present but not measured. This can easily be as much as 0.3 mEq/L (15 ppm as CaCO3).

According to the Bru'n Water alkalinity calculator to find bicarbonate, and entering the lower end of the range off my water report for Temporary Hardness as CaCO3, I'm estimated to be as much as 40ppm off against the math which is the difference between balancing or not balancing. Why? Is there that many potential ions not accounted for, or is something else going on?

 

[ajdelange]

You are putting a total hardness value into the calculator and expecting it to compute alkalinity and thus bicarbonate from that. It can't do that. It needs alkalinity to compute bicarbonate and carbonate. Note that akalinity equal to temporary hardness if you are given temporary hardness data but you don't have any temporary hardness data - only total hardness. This probably won't help but as the total hardness is equal, in mEq/L to the sum of the temporary hardness and the permanent hardness which is equal to the sum of the sulfate and chloride ion concentrations estimates based on using total hardness where you should use alkalinity or temporary hardness will be too large by the amount of their concentration (all number is mEq/L).

 

[springinloose1]

Ah ha! I understand (I think). Really, no matter what, unless the water report spells everything out (which mine clearly did not) the brewer is forced to do some math to arise at good numbers.

So if I take my estimated ion concentration number after the calculation (1.87346)

x 50 = Alkalinity (Entering this number into the calculator gives estimated bicarbonate)

OR

x 61 = Estimated Bicarbonate

And that's it, right?

 

[ajdelange]

That's about it.

The details of what the calculators that calculate bicarbonate and carbonate from alkalinity do (or, rather, should do) is in a sticky in this forum.