Brun Water Calc pH Input question

[copper2hopper]

So my problem is that I am starting with RO water and importing all zeros for the mineral contents however I also do know that the pH level of the distilled water I am using is 5.4. Now when I plug that in to the "water report input" tab page it doesn't seem to take that into account. With all of my grains plugged into the mash acidification page and salt additions I'm only getting down to a predicted 5.3. I cannot imagine that that is correct. Even when I try to play around with pH input section and change it from 5.42 to let's say eight, it does not change anything anywhere as if it's completely ignoring that input. Can someone help me out and explain why this is happening?

 

[Gavin C]

So my problem is that I am starting with RO water and importing all zeros for the mineral contents however I also do know that the pH level of the distilled water I am using is 5.4. Now when I plug that in to the "water report input" tab page it doesn't seem to take that into account. With all of my grains plugged into the mash acidification page and salt additions I'm only getting down to a predicted 5.3. I cannot imagine that that is correct. Even when I try to play around with pH input section and change it from 5.42 to let's say eight, it does not change anything anywhere as if it's completely ignoring that input. Can someone help me out and explain why this is happening?

Water pH is very unimportant when it comes to mash pH. The grains have a massive effect on the pH compared to the water. That's why you are seeing no change in the mash pH as water pH changes.

How do you figure the pH of the distilled water you are using is 5.4. Distilled water has a pH of 7.0. By definition that is where the 7.0 comes from as far as I know.

RO water on the other hand would usually have a pH of between 5 and 6 if the manufacturers are to be taken at their word. I see no reason to mistrust them on this.

The RO mineral content is not zero across the board. Very close to it but not zero. Bruin water has an option for both distilled and RO water. Pick the right one.

 

[mabrungard]

Um??? The only thing that pH input on the Water Input page is for is to calculate the concentrations of carbonate and bicarbonate ions when given an alkalinity value. It is not used anywhere else in the program and water pH wouldn't matter anyhow.

 

[ajdelange]

The things that go into mash (water, malt, salts...) have an 'intrinsic pH'. That's the pH you would measure if you put a pH electrode into the mash component in the case of water or the pH you would measure if you put a pH electrode into a mix of the component and distilled water in the case of acids, salts and malts. The mash has a target pH, the pH we want the mash to be at when all is said and done. If the target pH, usually around 5.5, is less than the intrinsic pH of a mash component acid must be added to lower the pH to the required value. The amount of acid required is the product of the difference in pH between target and intrinsic and the so called 'buffering' of the component. That product, referenced to a particular target pH is called the proton deficit or alkalinity of the component, always with reference to the target pH. With pure water the alkalinity, usually expressed relative to a pH of 4.5 (set by the water industry, not brewers) is very small as there is nothing dissolved in it to absorb protons from added acid. When you use RO water with a spreadsheet to specify its akalinity as 0 (though in fact it is actually a small but finite number and I don't think most spreadsheets even bother with it). That's why it doesn't matter what pH you enter. Alkalinity of 0 times delta pH is 0 whatever the value of delta pH. The proton deficit of pure water is nearly 0 whatever the target mash pH.

BTW the pH of pure water is, at 25 °C, 7. The pH of distilled water or RO water that has been exposed to the atmosphere's CO2 tends to be lower - in the 6's or 5's. Thus is, again, because of the tiny buffering capacity. Even a wee bit of acid can change pH quite a bit.

 

[Gavin C]

Water pH input in Bru'n water

Set it and forget it.

 

[ajdelange]

Deleted. Duplicate post. ???

 

[copper2hopper]

Gavin, I got my pH number from the treatment facility where I purchase my distilled water from. They told me it's 5.4 and everything else as far as minerals go are "N/D" (so I assume 0's would be sufficient as opposed to using burn water's already inputed RO and distilled figures). I just don't understand how a starting 5.4 pH wouldn't impact the mash ph to be lower after adding the grains and everything else. Considering treatment facilities receive their water sources from totally different sources all over the nation, the pH would vary significantly even after distilling and RO treatment wouldn't it? I mean if you start with a water that's high in pH at a treatment facility and a treatment facility somewhere else in the nation starts with a water source way lower in pH…wouldn't the end product be still different in pH as opposed to an assumed 7 no matter what they did with it? I think it would be safe to assume that the minerals are stripped out damn near close to zero and using 0's across the board would be fine as opposed to burn's default setting for RO or distilled?

Side question….reference pH meter….my Milwaukee pH56 meter swings significantly when I swirl it around in a solution when trying to take a reading of pH…I just tried it on Jewel brand distilled water and i've got a swing of 6.6ish when first dipping it in and then different variations while swirling between that and 5.9 at a rest. What is the best accurate way of doing these measurements on these stupid things. I'm about to revert back to pH test strips and just say I wasted $60 on a damn meter

 

[Gavin C]

@copper2hopper

The effect of the water is tiny. The grist contains orders of magnitudes more molecules affecting the pH than the small masses of various ions and dissolved solids in the water.

Think about it. Mineral additions to RO water are in the order of grams for 5-10 gallon batches. A typical grist for a a 5.5 gallon batch at 1.050 will be ~9.25 lbs in my setup.

Lets assume 10g of mass present in 8 gallons of strike/sparge water using tap or RO water with additions. That is an overly large estimate

The same mash will contain ~4000g of grist

That's a 400x difference in mass in water and the grist. I would surmise the effects on the water pH will be of a similar differing magnitude.

Water pH is not important. Mash pH is.

On the pH meter. I defer to @AJDelange 's expertise. I got a Hach Pro+ as it meets the acceptance criteria for a useful meter.

A meter that does not give stable readings is of no use. You're better off using the Bru'n water algorithm blind as it is in my experience accurate giving predicted measures of mash pH within about 0.05 of those measured with my meter.

Therefore, if you have a meter with less resolution than 0.05 you're better off not using it particularly if stable readings are not evident.

A good meter incorrectly calibrated will be similarly useless.

Sorry I can't be of more help. I just find Bru'n water to be extremely accurate in it's predictive capacity for mash pH. Using it completely negates the usefulness of a pH meter like the one you describe.

There is a good paragraph in Bru'n water on pH strips. They are seemingly useless. It's not worded as such but I'm thinking @mabrungard is too mannerly to parse it in such a way.

My meter has a resolution of 0.01 and I calibrate it before each mash. ( I brew fortnightly so that is no big chore)

Hopefully I am not uttering nonsense. It wouldn't be the first time I have been corrected in this forum that's for sure.

 

[copper2hopper]

No nonsense uttered man. Thank you for your explanation. Makes sense and I just need to trust the system. Cheers.

 

[copper2hopper]

Also. My resolution on the Milwaukee pH56 meter is .01 also. I'm just wondering why it fluctuates so much when I swirl. Do u get that too??

 

[Gavin C]

Also. My resolution on the Milwaukee pH56 meter is .01 also. I'm just wondering why it fluctuates so much when I swirl. Do u get that too??

No I don't see that with mine.

 

[copper2hopper]

Gavin, where is the option to select RO or Distilled on Brun Water….which page do I select that option?

 

[Gavin C]

Gavin, where is the option to select RO or Distilled on Brun Water….which page do I select that option?

There is a drop down menu in the water adjustment page when selecting any dilution percentage.

RO/Distilled Water selection

 

[copper2hopper]

Thank you Gavin. Can I ask you a follow-up question to understanding pH levels a little bit better? I was mowing this topic over with my friends and I think we came to the understanding that (and if we use this analogy) let's say I am trying to dilute 1.070 gravity wort(this being my starting water of let's say seven pH) with 1.053 gravity wort (this being my grainbill with all of my salt and acid additions). A 1.053 will reduce a 1.070 naturally. I get that. Is that essentially what is going on here with starting water pH level and then it reducing down to the mash pH level? But for my situation here and using the same analogy using 1.053 gravity wort (both now being my starting water pH level and the pH level of all the salts acid and grains) therefore it has nothing to bring down and it's basically adding a equal to a equal which is why I'm not seeing a change?

 

[Gavin C]

No your understanding is flawed

Your water will have a gravity of ~1.000 at 1 atm pressure. The small amount of dissolved solids in tap water will not change it much. Might be 1.001

a pH of 7 does not mean a specific gravity of 1.070.

1.070 wort has 70grams/liter of stuff dissolved in it. (Edit: NO IT DOES NOT, SEE @AJdelange 's correction) That stuff is the extracted sugars from the grains.

Don't try to link pH and gravity. They are entirely separate.

*any salt additions to water will of course adjust its specific gravity. These changes are minute and of no relevance* 10g of anhydrous salts in 40L of distilled strike/sparge water would have a gravity of 1.00025.

 

[ajdelange]

Side question….reference pH meter….my Milwaukee pH56 meter swings significantly when I swirl it around in a solution when trying to take a reading of pH…I just tried it on Jewel brand distilled water and i've got a swing of 6.6ish when first dipping it in and then different variations while swirling between that and 5.9 at a rest.

This is called 'stirring error' and is quite normal.

What is the best accurate way of doing these measurements on these stupid things. I'm about to revert back to pH test strips and just say I wasted $60 on a damn meter

If you spent only $60 on the meter there is indeed a good chance that the money was wasted but lets assume for the moment that the meter behaves normally. The sticky at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256 has reasonably detailed instructions on how to use and calibrate a pH meter. To handle stirring error just move the probe around to the point where the test solution has rinsed any remaining water from the rinse you did after the last sample or buffer away from the junction and bulb and then let the electrode rest stationary in the solution.

 

[ajdelange]

1.070 wort has 70grams/liter of stuff dissolved in it. That stuff is the extracted sugars from the grains.

Wort of specific gravity 1.070 has enough stuff dissolved in it so that it weights 998.203*1.07 grams per liter. It is approximately 70/4 = 17.5 °P and thus approximagtely 17.5% 'stuff' by weight i.e. 100 grams of it contains 17.5 grams of stuff. Since its density is 0.998203*1.07 = 1.06807721 gram/cc 100 grams of it has a volume of 100/1.06807721= 93.626 and the amount of stuff in 1 L is thus 17.5/0.093626 = 186.9 grams/Liter.

 

[copper2hopper]

Ur not understanding my analogy. I should not have used wort gravity I guess. I think all I am try to ask is...doesn't adding grainbill+salts+acids = (for most people I would think)reducing your starting water ph of,let's say seven for example, to your targeted 5.3-5.5 range? But if my water is already at that 5.3-5.5 range then adding a concoction of grain+salts+acids that has a predicted 5.3-5.5 ph output then it's not going to reduce my already 5.3-5.5ph any further because they're equal. Does that make sense? I understand that mash ph is what matters and stating water ph does not matter but everyone's goal is to add just the right amount of salts and and what not to a grainbill then doesn't that initial water profile and ph level matter?

 

[Gavin C]

I guess my understanding is also flawed. I thought taking 70g of a water soluble material that does not contain any water(if it's a crystalline solid) and dissolving it in 1L of water the mass will be 1070g

Ie SG ~1.070 (slightly less than 1.070 owing to the volume of the solid)

Some reading needed on my part it seems. Thanks @AJdelange

My main point was to de-link specific gravity and pH (Edit: Which the OP was not actually doing in the first place. Sorry @copper2hopper )

 

[Gavin C]

Ur not understanding my analogy. I should not have used wort gravity I guess. I think all I am try to ask is...doesn't adding grainbill+salts+acids = (for most people I would think)reducing your starting water ph of,let's say seven for example, to your targeted 5.3-5.5 range? But if my water is already at that 5.3-5.5 range then adding a concoction of grain+salts+acids that has a predicted 5.3-5.5 ph output then it's not going to reduce my already 5.3-5.5ph any further because they're equal. Does that make sense? I understand that mash ph is what matters and stating water ph does not matter but everyone's goal is to add just the right amount of salts and and what not to a grainbill then doesn't that initial water profile and ph level matter?

Yea I totally misunderstood. Not fully getting it I'm afraid so I would just reiterate my earlier post about the mass of the grist and the mass of the salts. The differing orders of magnitudes. The massive contribution of H+ ions in the grain versus that seen in your water. Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

[ajdelange]

I guess my understanding is also flawed. I thought taking 70g of a water soluble material that does not contain any water(if it's a crystalline solid) and dissolving it in 1L of water the mass will be 1070g

That's true so the strength of the solution is, if the soluble material is sucrose, 100*70/(998.203 + 70) = 6.55 °P. The Plato commission found that a solution made to this strength had (after to conversion to apparent 20/20) specific gravity of 1.02590

Ie SG ~1.070 (slightly less than 1.070 owing to the volume of the solid)

It's the fact that the volume of the liter increases when the solid is added, but not by as much as the volume of the solid, to 1044.86 mL (4.48%) that makes the calculations tricky.

 

[copper2hopper]

No problem man. Sorry to bother. Thanks for all you have explained this far though.

 

[wardens355]

Water chemistry is much more complex than dilution of wort to reach a SG goal. I would suggest you either read up on water chemistry, pH, buffering capacity, etc etc (considerable amount of time and effort required to understand), OR use Bru'n Water assuming distilled or RO water, adjust your mineral additions to achieve an acceptable mash pH output, and use your pH meter to confirm that the spreadsheet prediction gets you in the right ballpark (considerably less time involved). Of course, you could do both. Based on your feedback so far here, I would suggest the latter. Your water chemistry knowledge will be lacking, but as long as you can use the spreadsheet and dial in your mash pH, it doesn't really matter for the purposes of homebrewing.

 

[copper2hopper]

Thanks warden. Yeah still a newbie clearly. I'm almost done with Palmers water chemistry book and I gotta good handle on the calculators (from what I gather Brun is more accurate than EZ) but I'm a perfectionist OCD kinda guy and want to know more and wonder why things work the way they work on the calculators.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm a perfectionist OCD kinda guy and want to know more and wonder why things work the way they work on the calculators.

That's the spirit! That's why I usually post the way to do the calculation rather than jut say 'Use a calculator/spreadsheet'. Make your own! It will be customized to your needs/wants and, if you do it right, more accurate than the ones currently offered. Learn to use the Solver in Excel. It's very powerful.