Bru'n Water and Wards Labs

[hellesyeah]

Hello. I am looking into ordering a Brewers Water Test Kit from Ward's Labs, and hope to use their report to plug into Bru'n water spreadsheet. Will these numbers from Ward be simple to understand and plug into the spreadsheet in a straightforward manner?

 

[mabrungard]

You should have no problem in inserting the values from a Ward Labs testing report. The only tricky thing is that they report the sulfate content "as Sulfur" and you need to multiply that result by 3.0 to provide the actual result as sulfate.

 

[hellesyeah]

You should have no problem in inserting the values from a Ward Labs testing report. The only tricky thing is that they report the sulfate content "as Sulfur" and you need to multiply that result by 3.0 to provide the actual result as sulfate.

Martin, is Wards a testing source you'd feel comfortable recommending to a home brewer?

Thank you for the sulfate tip....these are the small things that trip up a novice like me.

 

[Delirious187]

Martin, Just curious on how the sulfate content is reported. The Wards report I received lists Sulfate (SO4-S). Would the multiply factor be required for correction in this case? See below; BTW in your opinion hows my water look? I just started getting into salt adjustments with using the software.

Results For :
Sample ID : SAMPLE NO 1
Location :
JOHN
pH 7.6
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 195
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.32
Cations / Anions, me/L 3.2 / 3.1
ppm
Sodium, Na 70
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 3
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 8
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 8
Chloride, Cl 49
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 73
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 60
Total Phosphorus, P 0.02
Total Iron, Fe 0.01
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

 

[hellesyeah]

Martin, Just curious on how the sulfate content is reported. The Wards report I received lists Sulfate (SO4-S). Would the multiply factor be required for correction in this case? See below; BTW in your opinion hows my water look? I just started getting into salt adjustments with using the software.

Results For :
Sample ID : SAMPLE NO 1
Location :
JOHN
pH 7.6
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 195
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.32
Cations / Anions, me/L 3.2 / 3.1
ppm
Sodium, Na 70
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 3
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 8
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 8
Chloride, Cl 49
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 73
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 60
Total Phosphorus, P 0.02
Total Iron, Fe 0.01
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

Delirious187, is this how a Brewers Report from Wards Lab will look if I order one?

 

[chudsonvt]

Delirious187, is this how a Brewers Report from Wards Lab will look if I order one?

Yes. I received one in April and it had all that. And because the sulfate is reported as SO4-S, multiply by 3. So in the above case, it is 24, not 8. It says right in the Bru'N Water Spreadsheet to do that.

 

[chudsonvt]

Martin, Just curious on how the sulfate content is reported. The Wards report I received lists Sulfate (SO4-S). Would the multiply factor be required for correction in this case? See below; BTW in your opinion hows my water look? I just started getting into salt adjustments with using the software.

Results For :
Sample ID : SAMPLE NO 1
Location :
JOHN
pH 7.6
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 195
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.32
Cations / Anions, me/L 3.2 / 3.1
ppm
Sodium, Na 70
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 3
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 8
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 8
Chloride, Cl 49
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 73
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 60
Total Phosphorus, P 0.02
Total Iron, Fe 0.01
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

I am pretty new to water adjustments myself, but your water looks pretty soft, IE> great starting point to use for almost any beer. The one thing that I think looks odd is that you have a pretty high starting point for sodium relative to everything else. Do you have a water softener? Supposedly that adds sodium to your water. Just be careful with your additions as to not add too much sodium.

You have probably seen this but it describes each minerals contribution pretty well: http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/reading-a-water-report

 

[Delirious187]

Yes Hellesyeah. I did the W-5A Brewers Test

Thanks Chud. I didn't multiply by 3 on my last batch. Good to know

 

[Delirious187]

Yes, I do run through a softener, but I think that value is relatively low or within acceptable range for most styles of beers. I find that I can help offset my salt additions with about 2% Acid Malt. I run my well water through a pretty extensive system due to high radon and moderate arsenic. Hence why I obtained this report. I also have a more extensive report from a local lab to verify I'm all good and eliminated the radon and arsenic. $6K later I hope my water is a good starting point for brewing. haha

 

[chudsonvt]

Yes Hellesyeah. I did the W-5A Brewers Test

Thanks Chud. I didn't multiply by 3 on my last batch. Good to know

Yeah, I did the same thing. But my starting point was 3 which is really 9 so it was not like a difference of 6 would be really noticeable in my final profile.

 

[mabrungard]

SO4-S is shorthand for "sulfate reported as sulfur".

 

[chudsonvt]

Yes, I do run through a softener, but I think that value is relatively low or within acceptable range for most styles of beers. I find that I can help offset my salt additions with about 2% Acid Malt. I run my well water through a pretty extensive system due to high radon and moderate arsenic. Hence why I obtained this report. I also have a more extensive report from a local lab to verify I'm all good and eliminated the radon and arsenic. $6K later I hope my water is a good starting point for brewing. haha

Yeah, that makes sense. I would just avoid adding canning salt (NaCl) or baking soda (NaHCO3). If you need to up your chloride, then you are probably going to need to use calcium chloride and/or magnesium chloride. Although increasing the sodium beyond 70ppm is still OK. I guess sodium also amplifies the effects of sulfate so be careful going to a high of a ratio of sulfate to chloride since you have the sodium already (for bitter beer styles like IPAs) I hear of people going upwards of 300ppm on sulfate in IPAs but with that sodium you probably want to be cautious. Just a guess but probably no more than 150ppm on sulfate when trying to accentuate the bitterness in an IPA.

Can anyone out there confirm my suspicion?

 

[mabrungard]

While sodium can be tasty in darker beers at 70 ppm, I find that it may be less pleasing in paler beers at that level. I suggest roughly half that Na level would be pleasant to most, but please report back if you find that the 70 ppm level is still pleasant in your pale beers.

 

[chudsonvt]

And that also means that if you don't find it pleasant, you can mix your water and distilled or RO water 50/50 and then be at a good level for paler beer.

 

[Delirious187]

Thanks for the input guys. So I will say the last beer I brewed was a Blood Orange Pale Ale modeled after a Dale's Pale Ale recipe here on HBT. I nailed everything, Mash temp, PH & water chemistry according to Bru n' Water. The beer turned out to be one of the cleanest and crisp beers to date. Unfortunately, something happened..... After 1 week of carbing it tasted really good. At week 2 it was amazing, week 3 awesome, week 4.....WTH! Beer turned super sweet, over caramelly, lost most of the Citra/Armarillo dry hop aroma/taste. I'm dumbfounded and completely disappointed. I've talked to a few fiends and local breweries and the general consensus is oxidation in the keg... This still doesn't make any sense to me at all because it was on gas the whole time. How can oxygen find its way in fighting against the flow of C02? Or, further more what else could have caused the rapid change??

Sodium???

 

[mabrungard]

It was likely due to oxidation in the keg. If you didn't fill the keg first with sanitizer and then force out the sanitizer with CO2, there was more than enough oxygen in the keg to stale the beer. The increase in caramel flavor and sweetness is typical indicator of oxidation.

Using CO2 to force the beer out of the fermenter and into the prepared keg through the Liquid Out port is a good way to avoid oxidation.

 

[dsniegocki]

For those who are curious, here's what the Ward report looks like. My numbers are low because I filter my whole house water supply, but I was still curious. I do recommend Ward, they do a great job.

 

[dsniegocki]

(I do also highly recommend Bru'n Water, Martin *also* does a great job )

 

[hellesyeah]

For those who are curious, here's what the Ward report looks like. My numbers are low because I filter my whole house water supply, but I was still curious. I do recommend Ward, they do a great job.

Dave, according to Martin's post, you took the SO4-S level of 6 ppm and multiplied it by 3 for a total of 18 to enter into your spreadsheet?

 

[B29]

This may not be the right place to ask, but here goes: I'm closing on a house Friday. It has a well with somewhat elevated iron so it has a water conditioner. I am on well now with terrible water and a water conditioner so I typically purchase water for brewing. In the new house I am considering adding ro filtration for drinking and brewing water. Shouldn't the RO system knock down the sodium?

 

[dsniegocki]

Dave, according to Martin's post, you took the SO4-S level of 6 ppm and multiplied it by 3 for a total of 18 to enter into your spreadsheet?

Correct, here's a snap of the Bru'n Water entry:

 

[mabrungard]

This may not be the right place to ask, but here goes: I'm closing on a house Friday. It has a well with somewhat elevated iron so it has a water conditioner. I am on well now with terrible water and a water conditioner so I typically purchase water for brewing. In the new house I am considering adding ro filtration for drinking and brewing water. Shouldn't the RO system knock down the sodium?

RO treatment will significantly reduce the sodium content. However, depending upon the hardness of your raw well water, you may not have a huge amount of sodium in your water after softening. If the well water is soft, but has iron, then the sodium content in your softened water could be low enough to brew with. You might check that out.

 

[chudsonvt]

This may not be the right place to ask, but here goes: I'm closing on a house Friday. It has a well with somewhat elevated iron so it has a water conditioner. I am on well now with terrible water and a water conditioner so I typically purchase water for brewing. In the new house I am considering adding ro filtration for drinking and brewing water. Shouldn't the RO system knock down the sodium?

There are also no salt conditioners out there. Confirm whether or not yours is. You may want to switch it out for the no salt if it is mainly an iron problem. I'm no expert but worth looking into it.

 

[ajdelange]

... is Wards a testing source you'd feel comfortable recommending to a home brewer?

It is basically the only game in town but that doesn't mean that I would hesitate to recommend them as for the price the testing is pretty good. There are a couple of things to look for. One is that the sulfate is reported 'as sulfur' as has already been mentioned. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that as long as you are aware of it but I have to admit that I spent a couple of years wondering why Ward Lab's balance numbers didn't agree with the balance computed from their ion concentrations. I just never noticed that -S!

Speaking of balance: the anions/cations numbers at the top of the report are a measure of the reports quality. The two numbers should be equal. The more unequal the numbers the worse the report. If they are within 0.1 mEq/L of each other that is a good report but if they differ by 0.5 or more that is not a good report and some reports get published here that are that bad or worse. I usually encourage people with 0.6 or 0.7 difference to contact them and request a rerun. They usually get an argument but we can often supply counter argument ammunition and Ward does re do the tests in many cases.

The other thing with Ward Labs is that they do not calculate carbonate ion correctly in cases of high pH (above 8.3). As, even in those cases, the carbonate content is but a few mg/L this doesn't matter in the gram scheme of things. For precise work you should be calculating carbonate and bicarbonate yourself. The formulas are in a sticky here.

 

[Delirious187]

Thanks Martin for your reply! I've learned that brewing great beer is more process driven once you understand all the variables. I'm convinced now the way to go is conical and keep everything under pressure along with transferring. (on my wish list) On a side note, I did C02 transfer my Pale Ale, and purged the keg with C02 prior. I ran into an issue when I sucked up some settled dry hop matter which clogged the spring on the ball lock out post (used as fill post) I had to de-pressurize / clean / reassemble and complete the transfer. This happened twice in the process SMH perhaps the culprit. I've also heard that hoppy beers degrade quicker, hence all the rage of "Drink it fresh!" Hopefully next time I will extend that freshness window longer than my 2-1/2 enjoyable weeks.

 

[dsniegocki]

Thanks Martin for your reply! I've learned that brewing great beer is more process driven once you understand all the variables. I'm convinced now the way to go is conical and keep everything under pressure along with transferring. (on my wish list) On a side note, I did C02 transfer my Pale Ale, and purged the keg with C02 prior. I ran into an issue when I sucked up some settled dry hop matter which clogged the spring on the ball lock out post (used as fill post) I had to de-pressurize / clean / reassemble and complete the transfer. This happened twice in the process SMH perhaps the culprit. I've also heard that hoppy beers degrade quicker, hence all the rage of "Drink it fresh!" Hopefully next time I will extend that freshness window longer than my 2-1/2 enjoyable weeks.

Martin is very knowledgeable, I agree and I have learned a lot from him! I started down the same path as you, and quickly realized that purging with CO2 prior to kegging doesn't seem to be enough. Martin alludes to it above, but to be clear, those who have done extensive tests have stated that it takes no more than a shot glass-sized amount of oxygen to do damage, and simply purging with CO2 doesn't get you there. I've got a thread where I attempted to mitigate this during my gravity transfer and there's some great responses in the thread if you're interested:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=575247

Basically, I now fill the entire keg with sanitizer, purge that out, and then transfer.

cheers!

 

[ajdelange]

Though this isn't going to be helpful to most I do mention it here from time to time. I keg in Sankeys and sterilized them with steam. When I shut off the steam I immediately connect to 20 psig CO2 which replaces the steam (which, over the course of the 15 min sterilization has displaced virtually all the air) as the steam condenses. I then counterfill against the CO2 pressure. Kegs prepared this way are good for 2 years and more.

 

[steveoatley]

interested:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=575247

Basically, I now fill the entire keg with sanitizer, purge that out, and then transfer.

cheers!

Dsniegocki

Your link is very informative, helpful - thanks

Did you ever try an 'pull a vacuum' in a keg ??
Suck out all the air......that would pull the beer from the conical.

Just an idea - with out using CO2

Steve

 

[dsniegocki]

Dsniegocki

Your link is very informative, helpful - thanks

Did you ever try an 'pull a vacuum' in a keg ??
Suck out all the air......that would pull the beer from the conical.

Just an idea - with out using CO2

Steve

Thanks... that's a great idea if it becomes necessary. But there's no CO2 pressure used in what I do (after purging the keg, of course)... it is all gravity-fed from the ball valve at the bottom of the fermenter. The line from the keg gas post back to the fermentor keeps the pressure at zero in the keg (and the fermenter), and sends the CO2 that was in the keg up to the fermentor to keep whatever beer is still in there under CO2 instead of ambient air.

 

[Delirious187]

dsniegocki that was a pretty awesome thread to read through. Certainly got me thinking more about my transferring process.

Now I know everyone says "don't fear the foam" but if you're topping off your keg with star san / purging out with C02 to another keg, doesn't that leave some residual star san either liquid i.e. what starts above the gas in port or foam that isn't pushed out like a traditional racking process that may affect the taste. I mean have you ever got star san on your hands and tasted it? Kinda rank. Star san specifically says to let it air/drip dry.

I like the idea, not knocking it, just trying to understand the process better. I would think that after letting the keg drip dry and purging with C02, burping the relief valve numerous times and then displacing the C02 in the keg (& perhaps small amount of o2) with beer pushed under pressure (2-3psi) that should be sufficient to significantly minimize or eliminate o2 exposure?

Hence this coming from the guy who did all this and somehow still ended up with oxidized beer! haha

I do see the benefit however in not wasting an exorbitant amount of C02 via your process.

 

[dsniegocki]

doesn't that leave some residual star san either liquid i.e. what starts above the gas in port or foam that isn't pushed out like a traditional racking process that may affect the taste. I mean have you ever got star san on your hands and tasted it? Kinda rank. Star san specifically says to let it air/drip dry.

I like the idea, not knocking it, just trying to understand the process better. I would think that after letting the keg drip dry and purging with C02, burping the relief valve numerous times and then displacing the C02 in the keg (& perhaps small amount of o2) with beer pushed under pressure (2-3psi) that should be sufficient to significantly minimize or eliminate o2 exposure?

Good stuff in that thread to be sure from some folks that are much smarter than me. : )

I can't speak for StarSan as I use One-Step, but considering all of the other things in my process (fermentor, connections, etc) that have no-rinse One-Step residue on them, it never seemed to me that the amount remaining in the keg relative to the beer would cause any harm, and I certainly haven't tasted any ill effects.

As far as just purging with CO2 alone... I'm no scientist and I definitely bow to the smarter minds on here... but the two factors as I understand it are dissolved oxygen levels, and time. Even "pure" commercial CO2 can increase the DO level in your beer given enough time (not to mention CO2 mixed with the ambient air in your keg), which is why some folks perform natural carbonation with spunding valves. But purging the ambient air with just CO2 does not displace nearly enough ambient air to make much difference. My understanding is that as little as one shot glass of ambient air contains enough oxygen to affect your beer over even a few days' time.

In other words, if you're going to bother eliminating oxygen at all during packaging, you would do best to work to eliminate it all. Certainly hop flavors are affected quite noticeably by this. John Kimmich (Alchemist) is a huge nut about eliminating DO levels at packaging, and it apparently makes a difference for him