Brulosophy expert can't tell a Blonde Ale made with straight RO from RO plus minerals

[ncbrewer]

You certainly can, if you understand what the numbers actually mean. But why not share that in the write-ups? That would make the information useful to a lot more people.

I've read their explanations, and I think they don't understand what the numbers actually mean.

 

[bkboiler]

I take beer pretty seriously and used to enjoy reading brulosophy. I've never taken their articles seriously though for the reasons @Bobby_M mentioned.
Lately, I think the formulaic style of the exbeeriment posts has grown long in the tooth and it's a big obvious/boring, at least imnsho.
Science is formulaic, but blogging isn't...gotta mix it up!

 

[Jayjay1976]

Pssst, hey kid, you still measuring out your grains and hops like you were told to? We did a triple-blind triangle tasting and found that nobody could tell the difference.
Scales are slavery!

Good grief.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I suppose you're still bittering with hops? Sounds like you need to dose more drywall if you want to brew a RealBeer™

 

[Pkrd]

I suppose you're still bittering with hops? Sounds like you need to dose more drywall if you want to brew a RealBeer™

Can you tell hops from lawn clippings? I bet you can't honestly answer that because you haven't done an exbeeriment. And because you can't invite your buddies over for blind beersies YOU WILL NEVER KNOW THE ANSWER.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

More on the "false alarm" related unreliability of P<0.05.

According to one widely used calculation, a P value of 0.01 corresponds to a false-alarm probability of at least 11%, depending on the underlying probability that there is a true effect; a P value of 0.05 raises that chance to at least 29%.

Here's the link to this quote which comes from an associate professor of statistics at Gallaudet University in Washington DC: Scientific method: Statistical errors

 

[Albionwood]

https://www.nature.com/news/scientific-method-statistical-errors-1.14700" One researcher suggested rechristening the methodology “statistical hypothesis inference testing”, presumably for the acronym it would yield. "

That guy might be a homebrewer.

Seriously though, the big takeaway here is that significance testing doesn't tell you anything about your hypothesis. "It is a statement about data in relation to a specified hypothetical explanation, and is not a statement about the explanation itself." That distinction is lost on most people, even most scientists.

The Exbeeriment being discussed here, for example, did not actually test whether beers made with and without mineral additions taste different. This is why someone else could run exactly the same procedure and come up with a completely different result.

All that being said, I still enjoy reading their results and they provide a lot of food for thought.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

The Exbeeriment being discussed here, for example, did not actually test whether beers made with and without mineral additions taste different. This is why someone else could run exactly the same procedure and come up with a completely different result.

Absolutely. It can only ever say that statistically those two kegs of beer are probably perceivably different, which is next to useless. In reality though, it would be a huge task to set up a rigorous experiment that could properly prove or disprove a brewing hypothesis, which is impractical at the brulosophy level (think multiple batches of multiple varieties of beer, a constant panel of at least 100 tasters with randomised tasting order, palate cleansing protocols). I still like reading exbeeriments for entertainment.

 

[Bilsch]

(think multiple batches of multiple varieties of beer, a constant panel of at least 100 tasters with randomised tasting order, palate cleansing protocols).

That's not going to sell any brewing equipment or t-shirts is it.

 

[Pkrd]

Meanwhile, over at HBT, experienced home brewers make the exact same recipe twice and can't get them to taste even remotely alike.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Just posting here to get updates, because this makes me immensely happy. If anyone wants to bring up "experimental" brewing as well, it would really make my day.

 

[day_trippr]

Meanwhile, over at HBT, experienced home brewers make the exact same recipe twice and can't get them to taste even remotely alike.

Hyperbolic sarcasm, one would hope...

Cheers!

 

[terwilliger]

Let me preface by saying that I don't think what Brulosophy is doing is wrong/bad. I do think there are flaws in testing that you can't really address without a lot of money behind the testing, which I don't think they have. I personally read (and have done so for many years) Brulosophy for entertainment and brewing interest, with some actual factual information sprinkled in. And really, that's what most of us do when we share our "knowledge" of brewing with others. Depending on our experience, and how much others respect our knowledge of the subject, will influence others and their brewing process/habits. But, I'm the type of person that listens, observes, and tests for myself. I don't normally take things for face value, usually, they just make me think of ways to prove it.

With all that said, I can see how it can stifle someone from exploring the craft on their own because someone already told them "do XYZ, because of ABC result". We can't address how people use the information we provide and we just need to be as transparent as possible with the information presented. I think they should always make sure to say that "this is subjective based on many different sensory abilities".

I'm here to say it's absolutely wrong/bad what he's doing. He's basically taking the entirety of the evolution of homebrewing and all of the trial and error, and saying 'it doesn't matter 'cause my buddies can't taste a difference'. It's complete bull. You can't argue with science, no matter how many t-shirts you sell on your blog.

 

[terwilliger]

Brülosophy is super rad as Marshall might say and Jersey and Tim are the new wave of beer judges. People put waaaay to much energy into perfection, but I’m not knocking it, your beer is your hobby, brew how you want. I for one appreciate the thoughtful work those guys put in for the love of beer.

You should head on over to reddit.com and /r/homebrewing then, they'll love you there

 

[Iseneye]

Yep it sucks. I went to my LHBS a while ago and they said something along the lines of "there's been studies done on method x and proved it doesn't matter". I asked what studies and they referred to Brulosophy. This bro "science" information is packaged in a way that makes some people think it's valid which can be damaging to homebrewers by justifying bad brewing practice.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

You should head on over to reddit.com and /r/homebrewing then, they'll love you there

Well I suppose I like it here just fine. It was always my impression that HBT welcomed alternative viewpoints, but it has been a while since I’ve posted here, maybe things have changed.

 

[Die_Beerery]

You should head on over to reddit.com and /r/homebrewing then, they'll love you there

Ahh the dumpster fire of the Internet. Its the only place he can post now, as the mainstream is on to all that BS.

 

[str1p3s]

duplicate

 

[str1p3s]

Marshall and co. have said repeatedly that their experiments are a single data point and should not be used to tell you how to brew or not to brew. They have also said repeatedly what amounts to "you do you". They are singling out an interesting variable and telling you what happened when they ran it by a panel of tasters and then they give their own impressions. That's it. I have some issues with their methods too and they do/don't do something things that I wouldn't be brave enough to try because I don't want to have to dump a batch and then wonder if it was because I dogmatically followed one of their experiment results.

That said, I would love to have the time and keg space to brew experiments so I could compare little changes I may want to make to my process, but I don't and Brulosophy does that and talks about the results. If it rings true to me, I give it a try. If not, I move along.

Marshall also seems like a really chill guy who would be fun to hang out with. Whoever said above that most of their homebrew tasting experiences are with an eyebrow raised at a perceived off flavor and wishing they hadn't tried it makes me wonder why the hell you're in this hobby (unless it's just to have your own beer, whatever, you do you) but I would actively avoid your table at the homebrew club meeting.

 

[ncbrewer]

You should do some googling and see why he and the AHA abruptly parted ties after HBC portland

I didn't find anything with Google. Do you have a link?

 

[str1p3s]

You should do some googling and see why he and the AHA abruptly parted ties after HBC portland.............You may have a different opinion. In these days of cancel culture, maybe homebrewers need to get more woke.

I'm intrigued but all I could find was what seemed to be a partial reddit thread about some unsubstantiated rumors? It seems pretty irresponsible to spread something like that if there's not much if anything actually known about it.

 

[Dancy]

Well I suppose I like it here just fine. It was always my impression that HBT welcomed alternative viewpoints, but it has been a while since I’ve posted here, maybe things have changed.

Typically, people here are, at a minimum, very civil in their replies. Unfortunately, you received a very snotty one. I like my hobby, but it is just beer, not a religion or life saving endeavor.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I'm intrigued but all I could find was what seemed to be a partial reddit thread about some unsubstantiated rumors? It seems pretty irresponsible to spread something like that if there's not much if anything actually known about it.

This is some of what I know. I know people who where there as well, and saw some "things". There was promptly "new" code of ethics signs everywhere.

I find it all VERY interesting.

 

[str1p3s]

Yeah that would fall directly under what I would call unsubstantiated rumors. Not prepared to draw any conclusions on that. Doesn't sound good but I don't know who did what or who was accused of what. And if it was that serious, it seems that it would have been made public with charges filed. There's more to the story that people "aren't at liberty" to reveal is how wild rumors start. I'd rather deal in known facts.

 

[Pappers_]

Thread locked temporarily while I read this thing . . .

Update: thread unlocked

 

[Pappers_]

Well I suppose I like it here just fine. It was always my impression that HBT welcomed alternative viewpoints, but it has been a while since I’ve posted here, maybe things have changed.

Good to see you, AZ, have missed you around here. There are as many different opinions about brewing beer as there are homebrewers, and they all seem to post here on HBT LOL. The issue we have sometimes is that others don't just post about what they think they know, but they have to 'defeat' anyone whose opinions or experiences are different.

If that happens, just hit the report button and we'll look into it. Obviously, no personal attacks. But also, sometimes people just need to let an argument go - no one is going to win an argument on the internet. Deep breath, push away from the keyboard . . . .

 

[Pappers_]

I deleted the post with messages about an unsubstantiated rumor that both parties, the AHA and Brulosphy, refused to confirm or deny. Until one of them comes out publicly and says that something happened, I'd prefer that we not spread those rumors here. Please do not raise them again here. If anyone sees these rumors raised again, please report it and you will earn karma points.

 

[Pappers_]

Brulosophy's work has elicited strong reactions on both sides for years now. Personally, I take it for what its worth but certainly don't put as much stock in what they write about lager fermentation as, say, Jamil Zanisheff and Chris White in Yeast.

That being said, lots of people find Brulosophy valuable for lots of good reasons. They are allowed to have that opinion. As always, the basic rule of HBT (and life, really) is "Don't be a dick". So, please, don't be a dick.

 

[Jayjay1976]

As always, the basic rule of HBT (and life, really) is "Don't be a dick". So, please, don't be a dick.

WTF, why did you just look at me when you said that?

"It takes all kinds of people"
-Roy Orbison

 

[Pappers_]

WTF, why did you just look at me when you said that?

"It takes all kinds of people"
-Roy Orbison

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I was looking over your shoulder, I swear . . . . .