Bruin Water Post Boil PH?

[rtstrider]

Is there a post boil PH adjustment calculator out there? If not does Bruin Water happen to have this feature? If not wonder how a feature request could be submitted?

 

[eliastheodosis]

Is there a post boil PH adjustment calculator out there? If not does Bruin Water happen to have this feature? If not wonder how a feature request could be submitted?

Curious to see the response. Tagging Martin to raise it to his attention.

@mabrungard

 

[cactusgarrett]

What I do, and I believe the best workaround for the moment, is:

1. Use the tool up front as intended before brew day.
2. On brew day, take the measured boil pH (as close to knockout as possible) and adjust your acid amount in Bru N Water to match the measured pH measured. Note this volume of acid.
3. Adjust the dosage rate in Bru N Water to acheive the desired knockout pH. Note this volume of acid.
4. Subtract #2 volume from #3 volume, and you'll have the approximate amount to add to hit your knockout pH.

I never get it perfect in this way, as the mesured pH routinely comes in about 0.05-0.08 pH higher than the tool predicts, but it gets you in the ballpark.

 

[rtstrider]

What I do, and I believe the best workaround for the moment, is:

1. Use the tool up front as intended before brew day.
2. On brew day, take the measured boil pH (as close to knockout as possible) and adjust your acid amount in Bru N Water to match the measured pH measured. Note this volume of acid.
3. Adjust the dosage rate in Bru N Water to acheive the desired knockout pH. Note this volume of acid.
4. Subtract #2 volume from #3 volume, and you'll have the approximate amount to add to hit your knockout pH.

I never get it perfect in this way, as the mesured pH routinely comes in about 0.05-0.08 pH higher than the tool predicts, but it gets you in the ballpark.

Good deal! I'm not worried about perfection lol Ballpark is good enough Thanks for the insight!

 

[Bullhog]

Might not be what you’re looking for but Beersmith has a tool that would work for you. You can enter in the same Bru’nWater information in Beersmith recipe/water tab (source water and salts added) and the pH adjustment is under the Mash tab I believe. I haven’t played around with it much, but it’s there and useful if you already use BeerSmith.

Also remember to add to BeerSmith what acids you already put in, I think that’s under mash tab as well.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Post-boil pH is tricky, in my experience, and requires familiarity with the recipe and a pH meter. To my knowledge, there is no calculator for post-boil pH. I know Silver is Money was working on one a few years ago, but I haven't heard about that in years.

Anyway, post-boil pH has been a big point of emphasis for me during the past four-five years and I'm reasonably happy with my results, even if they aren't always perfect. Here's how I tackle the problem for light colored beers (dark beers are a whole different kettle of fish and my process isn't as refined--it's something I should leave for others to discuss).

I like to mash at 5.4 for efficiency, then measure and adjust my post-mash entire runnings (pre-boil runnings, if you prefer) down to pH 5.25-5.2. This typically requires 1-1.5ml of 85% lactic/phosphoric with my DC tap water. So far, so easy.

The tricky part is the hops bill. I've certainly encountered a pronounced "ski jump" effect with hop bills that have 2oz+ of finishing hops. I use the term "ski jump" because my pH falls, as it should, and as the classic lager texts describe, until the the 20, 10, 5, and KO hops come into play. I always take a 20min pH sample and it invariably follows predictions, but the more late kettle hops I add, the more pronounced the ski jump effect. I may take a 20min reading that shows pH 5.05 when properly cooled, but that same beer may have a pH of 5.25 when cooled and racked into the fermenter. If you plot that line, it looks like a ski jump from the side, a long steady decent with a quick flip upward at the end.

To counter the ski jump, I employ an additional 1-2ml of acid (hop bill dependent: more acid for more hops) when I toss in my nutrient, boil trifecta charge, and whirlfloc. This is a convenient time to do it, but I cannot say if it's the ideal time to do it--I can't say that I know when that is. I do know that it'll fairly reliably get me down into the pH 5.0-5.1 range that I'm targeting.

Okay, neat. Is all of this worth the bother? I'm not a trend chaser, I don't do things in my brewery because other people say I should. If I'm doing something in my brewery I'm doing it because I'm trying to address a problem, I've tested the new process thoroughly, decided it makes a positive contribution and found that it's worth the hassle. Regarding hoppy pale lager beers, I think this makes a huge difference. It's blindingly obvious to me when I get it right and when I don't. This is especially evident with my Pre-Prohibition/N. American Premium Pils series of recipes called Panther Piss, you likely know Panther Piss if you follow the "What are you drinking now?" thread with any regularity.

Those recipes are aggressively hopped by lager standards, they use a fair ol' whack of Clusters and an aggressive amount of gypsum--I could call several of them IPLs, if I saw fit. If I don't hit my target pH going into the fermenter, they're unambiguously rough and coarse on the tongue. If I hit that post-boil pH, they're aggressively hoppy, bone dry, but quite smooth with room for the grist to pop through. Missing the post-boil pH always kills the grist in the flavor profile of these recipes.

This year, because we haven't had a lot of rain in DC and my tap water has been abnormally chunky, I've started experimenting with a final fermenter dose of acid to fine tune my pH as I rack out of the kettle--my old notes have betrayed me because my water is a bit more chunky this year. I don't have as much data available on this technique, but it seems to be working. I don't know if this can be used as a substitute for my 15min acid addition. I've never tried that before.

I'll also mention that if you're brewing an ale, especially a UK ale, ale yeasts are much more aggressive at adjusting the pH once they're pitched and can get a bit sour if you set them up too low. With the Fullers strain, I like to pitch around pH 5.0-5.1, like a lager. The T. Taylor strain seems a bit more happy at 5.1-5.2--but I'm not certain about that; I'm usually pitching something dark with that strain, so I can't say for certain. Chico seems happy at 5.1 and I don't think I've every managed to get it down to 5.0 because when I use Chico I'm using a boat load of hops. This Fall, when I make a big, stupid hoppy ale with Chico, I'll certainly try the acid at racking into the fermenter technique. As I write this, I have no data to report on that idea.

Anyway, that's what I know right now. I still have more to learn because there's a lot of moving parts in play and I suspect that'll always be the case--hence, no calculator. I have scads of brew logs available if that'll help anyone out.

I hope you found this was useful.

 

[Boleslaus]

Post-boil pH is tricky, in my experience, and requires familiarity with the recipe and a pH meter. To my knowledge, there is no calculator for post-boil pH. I know Silver is Money was working on one a few years ago, but I haven't heard about that in years.

Anyway, post-boil pH has been a big point of emphasis for me during the past four-five years and I'm reasonably happy with my results, even if they aren't always perfect. Here's how I tackle the problem for light colored beers (dark beers are a whole different kettle of fish and my process isn't as refined--it's something I should leave for others to discuss).

I like to mash at 5.4 for efficiency, then measure and adjust my post-mash entire runnings (pre-boil runnings, if you prefer) down to pH 5.25-5.2. This typically requires 1-1.5ml of 85% lactic/phosphoric with my DC tap water. So far, so easy.

The tricky part is the hops bill. I've certainly encountered a pronounced "ski jump" effect with hop bills that have 2oz+ of finishing hops. I use the term "ski jump" because my pH falls, as it should, and as the classic lager texts describe, until the the 20, 10, 5, and KO hops come into play. I always take a 20min pH sample and it invariably follows predictions, but the more late kettle hops I add, the more pronounced the ski jump effect. I may take a 20min reading that shows pH 5.05 when properly cooled, but that same beer may have a pH of 5.25 when cooled and racked into the fermenter. If you plot that line, it looks like a ski jump from the side, a long steady decent with a quick flip upward at the end.

To counter the ski jump, I employ an additional 1-2ml of acid (hop bill dependent: more acid for more hops) when I toss in my nutrient, boil trifecta charge, and whirlfloc. This is a convenient time to do it, but I cannot say if it's the ideal time to do it--I can't say that I know when that is. I do know that it'll fairly reliably get me down into the pH 5.0-5.1 range that I'm targeting.

Okay, neat. Is all of this worth the bother? I'm not a trend chaser, I don't do things in my brewery because other people say I should. If I'm doing something in my brewery I'm doing it because I'm trying to address a problem, I've tested the new process thoroughly, decided it makes a positive contribution and found that it's worth the hassle. Regarding hoppy pale lager beers, I think this makes a huge difference. It's blindingly obvious to me when I get it right and when I don't. This is especially evident with my Pre-Prohibition/N. American Premium Pils series of recipes called Panther Piss, you likely know Panther Piss if you follow the "What are you drinking now?" thread with any regularity.

Those recipes are aggressively hopped by lager standards, they use a fair ol' whack of Clusters and an aggressive amount of gypsum--I could call several of them IPLs, if I saw fit. If I don't hit my target pH going into the fermenter, they're unambiguously rough and coarse on the tongue. If I hit that post-boil pH, they're aggressively hoppy, bone dry, but quite smooth with room for the grist to pop through. Missing the post-boil pH always kills the grist in the flavor profile of these recipes.

This year, because we haven't had a lot of rain in DC and my tap water has been abnormally chunky, I've started experimenting with a final fermenter dose of acid to fine tune my pH as I rack out of the kettle--my old notes have betrayed me because my water is a bit more chunky this year. I don't have as much data available on this technique, but it seems to be working. I don't know if this can be used as a substitute for my 15min acid addition. I've never tried that before.

I'll also mention that if you're brewing an ale, especially a UK ale, ale yeasts are much more aggressive at adjusting the pH once they're pitched and can get a bit sour if you set them up too low. With the Fullers strain, I like to pitch around pH 5.0-5.1, like a lager. The T. Taylor strain seems a bit more happy at 5.1-5.2--but I'm not certain about that; I'm usually pitching something dark with that strain, so I can't say for certain. Chico seems happy at 5.1 and I don't think I've every managed to get it down to 5.0 because when I use Chico I'm using a boat load of hops. This Fall, when I make a big, stupid hoppy ale with Chico, I'll certainly try the acid at racking into the fermenter technique. As I write this, I have no data to report on that idea.

Anyway, that's what I know right now. I still have more to learn because there's a lot of moving parts in play and I suspect that'll always be the case--hence, no calculator. I have scads of brew logs available if that'll help anyone out.

I hope you found this was useful.

Are you checking post-ferment pH? If so what are your typical targets?

 

[Bramling Cross]

Are you checking post-ferment pH? If so what are your typical targets?

Not often. The reason for this is simple: When a beer tastes right, it is right. So no further investigation is warranted.

If I'm not happy with a beer (especially a light lager) because its too flabby and round in the mouth, I generally know that the finishing pH is a bit high and it's easy to confirm with the pH meter. More often, I simply place a drop of 10% acid in the glass, it's quicker and the results are conclusive. Ale yeasts, especially UK ale yeasts can sometimes make the finished pH really plummet and subsequently finish a bit tart. That's a hard one to miss, too, and just as easy to diagnose with the pH meter--or a pinch of baking soda in the glass, same as above.

Frankly, I rarely bump into issues like these anymore, so my logs aren't terribly helpful in this respect because if I get the pH right going into the fermenter, pitch an adequate pitch of heathy yeast, then treat them right, the results tend to be right.

For what it's worth, I just pulled samples of the four lagers that I currently have kegged and they all were in the pH 4.07-4.14 range. Despite the small variations, they all taste about the same, which should be expected as they're all variations of my Panther Piss fizzy yellow swill recipe.

I currently don't have any ales in process. If it's useful to you, you're welcome to send me a PM and I can let you know what my ales look like when I restart the ale side of my brewery later this month. The trick on that side of the brewery is to keep the finishing pHs up, especially on my brown porters--they seem happiest around pH 4.5+.

I hope you found that useful.

 

[Boleslaus]

Not often. The reason for this is simple: When a beer tastes right, it is right. So no further investigation is warranted.

If I'm not happy with a beer (especially a light lager) because its too flabby and round in the mouth, I generally know that the finishing pH is a bit high and it's easy to confirm with the pH meter. More often, I simply place a drop of 10% acid in the glass, it's quicker and the results are conclusive. Ale yeasts, especially UK ale yeasts can sometimes make the finished pH really plummet and subsequently finish a bit tart. That's a hard one to miss, too, and just as easy to diagnose with the pH meter--or a pinch of baking soda in the glass, same as above.

Frankly, I rarely bump into issues like these anymore, so my logs aren't terribly helpful in this respect because if I get the pH right going into the fermenter, pitch an adequate pitch of heathy yeast, then treat them right, the results tend to be right.

For what it's worth, I just pulled samples of the four lagers that I currently have kegged and they all were in the pH 4.07-4.14 range. Despite the small variations, they all taste about the same, which should be expected as they're all variations of my Panther Piss fizzy yellow swill recipe.

I currently don't have any ales in process. If it's useful to you, you're welcome to send me a PM and I can let you know what my ales look like when I restart the ale side of my brewery later this month. The trick on that side of the brewery is to keep the finishing pHs up, especially on my brown porters--they seem happiest around pH 4.5+.

I hope you found that useful.

I have not meddled in ph adjustment
outside of mash ph. You must have some very repeatable brews to tell such a minute an acid addition at the pint level. Kudos.

 

[rtstrider]

Just dabbled in my first real post boil ph adjustment. This ended up at 5.0 after a quick post boil lactic acid addition. Now I'm not entirely sure what that does, or doesnt, bring to the table. However, if the beer turns out good I may just add that to the process of things to do going forward. Without being experienced with this recipe, or doing a side by side, I'm essentially flying blind

 

[cactusgarrett]

Now I'm not entirely sure what that does, or doesnt, bring to the table.

My experience:

This will mainly be recipe and preference dependent. You might have to do a deep-dive into more professional approaches to the subject, as it isn't a very common thing amongst homebrewers. But BC touched on it a bit - darker, maltier beers (in general) benefit from a higher knockout pH, whereas hoppy beers tend to have the hop presence brighter with a lower knockout pH (which will usually counter the pH increase from dry hopping), and pale lagers tend to present as crisper/brighter, as well.